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You thought I was “joking” about Hungary’s intention to revise Trianon – and then some.
Keep “laughing”.
Orban’s commemoration speech from Thursday:
The West raped the thousand-year-old borders and history of Central Europe. They forced us to live between indefensible borders, deprived us of our natural treasures, separated us from our resources, and made a death row out of our country. Central Europe was redrawn without moral concerns, just as the borders of Africa and the Middle East were redrawn. We will never forget that they did this.
And when we thought that neither the arrogant French and British nor the hypocritical American empire could sink deeper than this, they could still do so. After World War II we were thrown to the Communists without heartache. The reward of the Poles, the Czechs and the Slovaks was the same as our punishment. May this be an eternal lesson for the peoples of Central Europe! …
Our great-grandfathers didn’t give up either. They did not kneel or ask for mercy. We stayed on our feet and endured. We endured the wagon towns, the Nazi camps, the Soviet gulag, the deportations, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and Ceauşescu.
Today, there is no Czechoslovakia, no Yugoslavia nor a Soviet Union. There is no British or French empire. And what’s left of them is now twisting in the multicultural grip of their vindictive colonies.
Just… powerful.
The world is changing. The changes are tectonic. The United States is no longer alone on the throne of the world, Eurasia is rebuilding with full throttle, the frames of our European Union are crackling, and now it hopes to save itself with a salto mortale. The ground is trembling under the feet of our eastern neighbour. The Balkans is also full of questions to be answered.
A new order is being born. In our world, in our lives as well, great changes are banging on our gates.
I wonder who that eastern neighbor could be. The Ukraine? 🙂
But indeed, it is time for a “New Order”. (Again).
And it is certainly never not the time to not “answer” “questions” in the Balkans.
Hungarians are contracting and expanding like the human heart, but we have been living for a thousand and a hundred years where our great state founders chose our place. We defend the Carpathian Basin with dignity, which is also our mission. Every new Hungarian child is also a new guard post. We do not cut, torment, or sell, but keep the Carpathian Basin. …
In the last ten years, we have proved to our neighbours that if the vitality of the Hungarian national fragments adds up, it is good not only for us, but also for them. Only the state has borders, the nation does not. This is the law. Some have understood this and some have not. Those who have yet to understand it would do better to hurry because they’re running out of time.
As our own Great Leader PUTLER told us, the borders of Russia never end.
People will indeed “understand” once they realize that Trianon expired a couple of days ago and that Hungary’s territory has just been doubled in size.
Let us look at the history of the past hundred years. Let us understand the depths of change of the last ten years. Let us not be afraid of what we see: we are the ones we have been waiting for. Yes, we are the ones who are reversing the fate of Hungary.
We can hope that our generation, the fourth generation after Trianon can fulfil our mission and take Hungary all the way to the gates of victory.
But the decisive battle must be fought by the generation following us, the fifth generation after Trianon. They must take the final steps. As it is written:
“Gather your strength. And first of all. Start with the simplest thing – Come together, To grow in a tremendous way, To somehow approach God, who is infinite. ”
It will not be easy and it will not be simple, but it will be worth it.
Great times are ahead of you.
Get ready, and prepare every day.
Hungary before all else, God above us all!
All will soon witness the power and feel the wrath of the Hungarian neo-hordes!
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Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.
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Does anyone not have beef with the British? Every malcontent with a bone to pick always has to blame “the British” for their problems.
Orban won’t try anything, I imagine he is just doing this nationalist big talk to please his supporters. He wouldn’t dare risk his reputation as “Defender of Europe” to start picking fights with the neighbouring countries.
Batzorig Vaanchig (Mongolia) – vocals, morin khuur
Auļi (Latvia) – bagpipes, drums
When did the Huns cross any ocean?
Or any sea for that matter...Replies: @Anuxicus, @romar
Wasn’t this guy installed by American Jewish political consultants? Wow, so based, I’m sure Trump will build the wall any day now
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_J._Finkelstein
Auļi (Latvia) - bagpipes, drums
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vztRqe_CHC0Replies: @Ano4
Really?
When did the Huns cross any ocean?
Or any sea for that matter…
Orban made a great speech.
Now we need to find if it was a historical speech.
If in a couple of years Hungarian flag is risen on Transylvania and Zakarpatiye, then Orban is a proud successor to his illustrious predecessors.
If they have the same spirit in them, Hungarians should rise to the challenge and bring their territories back.
(Irresentist revisionism is always fun to watch from a safe distance.)
This is hilarious. Modern Hungarians are for the most part as cucked and soft as any German. The only result of any attempts by Hungary to revisit Trianon will be the final expulsion of ethnic Hungarians from Transylvania and Vojvodina. Hungary will take refugees in the end, but they will be Magyar.
But unfortunately you are correct in one respect, Hungary's military is currently in no state to wage revanchist wars. But that's for the fifth generation after Trianon.Replies: @Peter Akuleyev, @Fluesterwitz
Here’s a 2018 article (use some online translation service) about how a war with Romania would look like: we might be able to stop them at the river Tisza, but more likely they’d reach the outskirts of Budapest.
https://azonnali.hu/cikk/20180925_tamadnak-a-romanok-csapataink-harcban-allnak-3
(This is a part of a series, they went through the scenarios with each of our neighbors. Spoiler: most of them are stronger than us.)Replies: @Peter Akuleyev, @Anatoly Karlin
When did the Huns cross any ocean?
Or any sea for that matter...Replies: @Anuxicus, @romar
Hungary once controlled part of the Croatian coast.
As long as it is Croatian coast, Magyars can have it back.
Good.
As long as it is Croatian coast, Magyars can have it back.
LOL, only one of those peoples are tripping over themselves to pay obeisance to the Cult of #FentalynFloyd.
But unfortunately you are correct in one respect, Hungary’s military is currently in no state to wage revanchist wars. But that’s for the fifth generation after Trianon.
Now we need to find if it was a historical speech.
If in a couple of years Hungarian flag is risen on Transylvania and Zakarpatiye, then Orban is a proud successor to his illustrious predecessors.
If they have the same spirit in them, Hungarians should rise to the challenge and bring their territories back.
(Irresentist revisionism is always fun to watch from a safe distance.)Replies: @Mr. Hack
It’s too bad that Karlin doesn’t first use his uncanny abilities of statistical analyses to good use by comparing Hungary’s military strength vs Ukraine’s before gleefully supporting such nonsense. There are over 1,000,000 Ukrainains living in Zakarpattya today and they have long memories when it comes to Hungarian irredentist dreams relating to their home turf. 1939:
Such surprises will be met with much greater Ukrainain stiff resistance than in 1939.
Although we certainly live in interesting times.
Many things unthinkable six months ago seem possible today.
https://azonnali.hu/cikk/20181005_mi-lenne-ha-tamadnanak-a-szlovakok-vagy-az-ukranok-csapataink-harcban-allnak-4
(The second half of the article is about a war with Slovakia. The Slovaks would need to wage a Blitzkrieg against us, or else they’d be beaten back.)
(The articles assume our neighbors attacking us, but perhaps we could assume that if they can easily reach Budapest when attacking us, then attacking them wouldn’t be a cakewalk either.)Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack
The replacement of Romania with Ceausescu may mean he is at least grateful we got Hungary rid of Bela Cohen.
Too bad an America junkie, arrested 10 days earlier, shat on his powerful take. I hope at least his wife heard it.
Orban’s speeches are always like this. I posted some quotes from his speeches in this forum before, where he pretends that he doesn’t understand “liberalism”. A stupid speech is nothing unusual for him.
The important thing is that his actions are intelligent – e.g. he created lowest corporation tax in the EU in Hungary and he manages to avoid the worst aspects of the immigration crisis. On the other hand, he likely has to rely a bit on a “low IQ base” of support in Hungary, so he matches rhetoric in these speeches for them, in this comical way.
It is a politician with successful actions and policies, which will win votes from common sense people, for him. At the same time, he has often to provide simplistic “low IQ” speeches, for malcontents and a kind of less educated workers who miss the economic benefits of his policies, but might enjoy a vicarious increase in national prestige and emotional strength.
Here is something similar to the strategy “One-nation conservatism” in the UK. Also Reagan had something similar – combining childish rhetoric (e.g. “evil empire”), with an intelligent (but unequally distributing) actual policies.
I know Reinor Tor will say something like “Orban is actually just a stupid man, who never read a book”. But his success as a leader indicated otherwise.
That’s some todd-damn great speech, no?
Joking on the sly / kidding on the square.
The joke is he wasn’t joking.
As for the part of Ukraine they are primarily after, I don’t entirely understand why Ukrainians even want it, especially since they could probably sell it back for cash and diplomatic support. Isn’t it approximately like 4 towns or something? It does not look big. It’s a small sliver full of Hungarians on the Hungarian border. And it is supposed to be dirt poor as far as I know, and disgruntled. Why do Ukrainian nationalists even want it?
Czechs and Slovaks are as far as I know the only people to have ever settled these questions amicably. I don’t get why it is always so hard.
If Ukraine can into EU and V4, they’re going to have to buddy up to Hungary somehow.
If Hungary is asking for all of Zakarpattia that is what negotiations are for. Wouldn’t Orban settle it just for the Hungarian area?
If it was the Czechs, they would probably just say ‘Co to kurva, get out. Have fun.’
Nice to seeing nationalism coming back to its former glory.
RETVRN TO TRADITION EVROPEAN MAN!
Maybe like the 600,000 Hungarians who left Orban’s paradise for Gaymuslim Eurohell had the right idea?
https://hungarianspectrum.org/2018/06/22/leaving-in-hordes-emigration-from-hungary/
Is there anyone who Britain hasn’t fucked over in the past couple hundred years? And more importantly, is there any people on earth that Britain (or their unruly hellspawn the U.S.) hasn’t tried to poison with their Satanic ideology?
The reality is England has one of the largest and most downtrodden white underclasses anywhere in the Western world, some (majority white) parts of England are among the poorest in Europe, yet most people don't realise this. They think that all English people are basically rich and privileged from the "stolen wealth" and "spoils of empire" and to use the Jewish analogy, regard the rest of Europe and humanity as "goyim" compared to the English. However, the reality is the English aristocracy/upper class regard the English underclass as just as much "goyim" as the rest of humanity. They certainly haven't benefited from any supposed "spoils of empire".
I don't find it that surprising though, it's often difficult for outsiders to distinguish between a people and their ruling elite, and there are few Western countries where the common people are further removed from their ruling elite than England.Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
I will be much surprised if it comes to real fighting.
Although we certainly live in interesting times.
Many things unthinkable six months ago seem possible today.
He may be aping Trump, who gave some great speeches in 2016 which ultimately came to nothing.
During its heyday, Britain was a very nasty empire for those under its yoke. Ironically, now that it is a second-rate European country suffering from multiculturalism, more people are willing to criticize it than when it was at the top of the game.
Compared to what? The Mongols? The Huns? The Arabs? The Turks?
The ground is trembling under the feet of our eastern neighbor.
Ukraine has sizable Hungarian population of about 150,000 people in the Transcarpathian region – around the city of Uzhhorod
The Balkans is also full of questions to be answered.
He probably means the Transylvania region in Romania (though Romania is generally not considered to be in the Balkans) where about 1.5 million ethnic Hungarians live
Needed: a pact between its neighbors to enslav Hungary.
” Britain was a very nasty empire for those under its yoke”
Compared to what? The Mongols? The Huns? The Arabs? The Turks?
If we take Yemen as an example, we can say the British leaving was a disaster for the populace.
Unfortunately there’s nothing the British can do about it, because of the chronic mismanagement of the country.
The people with the most positive image of Britain seem to be Harry Potter fans.
There will be no such attempts. For example Romania is over double the size of Hungary with a much stronger military.
Here’s a 2018 article (use some online translation service) about how a war with Romania would look like: we might be able to stop them at the river Tisza, but more likely they’d reach the outskirts of Budapest.
https://azonnali.hu/cikk/20180925_tamadnak-a-romanok-csapataink-harcban-allnak-3
(This is a part of a series, they went through the scenarios with each of our neighbors. Spoiler: most of them are stronger than us.)
I wonder if Hungary would be able to "revise Trianon" was to spend 10% of GDP on the military for half a decade + no intervention from outside parties.
That's for the fifth generation to find out!Replies: @another anon
@Karlin
Trebled. Excluding Croatia (which was a separate kingdom) Hungary lost 67% of its territory. If we include the Kingdom of Croatia (which was also a country of the Holy Crown), then Hungary lost 71% of its territory. (No-one ever wanted to get back Croatia for sure, but the map looks better with Croatia included.)
Here’s a 2018 article about a potential war between Hungary and Ukraine. (Use Google Translate.) It’s part of a series about hypothetical scenarios of wars between Hungary and each of its neighbors. Spoiler: we’d lose badly.
https://azonnali.hu/cikk/20181005_mi-lenne-ha-tamadnanak-a-szlovakok-vagy-az-ukranok-csapataink-harcban-allnak-4
(The second half of the article is about a war with Slovakia. The Slovaks would need to wage a Blitzkrieg against us, or else they’d be beaten back.)
(The articles assume our neighbors attacking us, but perhaps we could assume that if they can easily reach Budapest when attacking us, then attacking them wouldn’t be a cakewalk either.)
https://censor.net.ua/news/3192464/kb_luch_dosrochno_otgruzilo_vsu_16_raket_vilha_v_ramkah_vypolneniya_gosoboronzakaza_na_2019_g
The state enterprise GKKB Luch, which is part of the Ukroboronprom group of companies, shipped the last 16 units of the Vilha missile to the Armed Forces of Ukraine from a batch that was mass-produced at the enterprise as part of the state defense order-2019.
The further modernized Vilkha-M are scheduled for mass production in 2021.Replies: @reiner Tor
Transcarpathia isn’t Ukraine and they don’t consider themselves as such.
Nationality Number in 2001 (%) in 1989 (%) growth (%)
Ukrainians (incl. Rusyns) 1,010,100 80.5 78.4 +3.4%
Hungarians 151,500 12.1 12.5 -2.7%
Romanians 32,100 2.6 2.4 +9.0%
Russians 31,000 2.5 4.0 -37.3%
Roma 14,000 1.1 1.0 +15.4%
Slovaks 5,600 0.5 0.6 -22.3%
Germans 3,500 0.3 0.3 +3.0%Because in 2001 the Ukrainian government (in both Kyiv and in Uzhhorod) didn't recognize any separate "Rusyn" nationality, they weren't included here. Since then, I believe that at the oblast level Rusyns are now considered such, so you could add a whole 10.100 of them as well if you like, and subtract that amount from the 1,010,000 Ukrainians, if it makes you feel any better. :-)
But unfortunately you are correct in one respect, Hungary's military is currently in no state to wage revanchist wars. But that's for the fifth generation after Trianon.Replies: @Peter Akuleyev, @Fluesterwitz
Show me where Romanians and Serbs are out protesting. Budapest is far more globohomo than Bucharest or Belgrad. Orban is a farce, grandstanding for the country folk, much like Trump, then going home and getting a manicure and enjoying a Nespresso.
https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/romania-420.jpg
Romania will converge to a far higher level of GloboHomo than Hungary thanks to its pro-American status and high English language knowledge.Doesn't really matter what the personal convictions of the Great Leaders are.
What matters is the values that youth grow up with, which then proceed to create their own, new reality.Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Peter Akuleyev
Here’s a 2018 article (use some online translation service) about how a war with Romania would look like: we might be able to stop them at the river Tisza, but more likely they’d reach the outskirts of Budapest.
https://azonnali.hu/cikk/20180925_tamadnak-a-romanok-csapataink-harcban-allnak-3
(This is a part of a series, they went through the scenarios with each of our neighbors. Spoiler: most of them are stronger than us.)Replies: @Peter Akuleyev, @Anatoly Karlin
I think most of the posters here, and maybe Karlin, seem to think that Orban is talking about Kárpátalja, the bit of Hungary now in Ukraine. Most Hungarians would put that way down the list of lost land, since that is a poor and primitive region. The biggest loss at Trianon was Transylvania, the heart of historical Hungary (now in Romania), followed by Vojvodina, the best agricultural land in old Hungary, and Pozsony (Bratislava), the seat of the kings of Hungary under the Habsburgs. Hungary doesn’t have good odds against any of those countries. Maybe they can grab Burgenland back from Austria before Austria fills it with African refugees.
- they provide Hungarian language education for the ethnic minority
- we often provide additional funding for those schools, which they accept This was started in December 1991 with Ukraine, before the Belovezha Accords. (Hungary was perhaps the first country to recognize Ukrainian independence.) This proved a great precedent for the other, more important neighbors, like Romania or Slovakia. Now Ukraine is rolling back all these, which could also set a bad precedent. This is why we are so sensitive to the sudden worsening of the situation for the Hungarian minority in Ukraine.Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
Wrong as always, but nice to see that some things in this ever-changing confusing world stay the same.
https://azonnali.hu/cikk/20181005_mi-lenne-ha-tamadnanak-a-szlovakok-vagy-az-ukranok-csapataink-harcban-allnak-4
(The second half of the article is about a war with Slovakia. The Slovaks would need to wage a Blitzkrieg against us, or else they’d be beaten back.)
(The articles assume our neighbors attacking us, but perhaps we could assume that if they can easily reach Budapest when attacking us, then attacking them wouldn’t be a cakewalk either.)Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack
Interesting, thanks. Since this article was published in 2018, Ukraine has significantly upgraded its missile forces with Vilkha rockets, mass produced in 2019 and early 2020:
https://censor.net.ua/news/3192464/kb_luch_dosrochno_otgruzilo_vsu_16_raket_vilha_v_ramkah_vypolneniya_gosoboronzakaza_na_2019_g
The state enterprise GKKB Luch, which is part of the Ukroboronprom group of companies, shipped the last 16 units of the Vilha missile to the Armed Forces of Ukraine from a batch that was mass-produced at the enterprise as part of the state defense order-2019.
The further modernized Vilkha-M are scheduled for mass production in 2021.
I think if there’s going to be a deal with Ukraine (your president made some noises to the effect), it’d include Hungarian military procurement from Ukraine. Since we have to spend a lot on the military anyway, Orbán is using it to buy goodwill from weapons exporters.Replies: @Mr. Hack
https://censor.net.ua/news/3192464/kb_luch_dosrochno_otgruzilo_vsu_16_raket_vilha_v_ramkah_vypolneniya_gosoboronzakaza_na_2019_g
The state enterprise GKKB Luch, which is part of the Ukroboronprom group of companies, shipped the last 16 units of the Vilha missile to the Armed Forces of Ukraine from a batch that was mass-produced at the enterprise as part of the state defense order-2019.
The further modernized Vilkha-M are scheduled for mass production in 2021.Replies: @reiner Tor
The Hungarian armed forces are rapidly modernizing and developing (from a very low base), too.
I think if there’s going to be a deal with Ukraine (your president made some noises to the effect), it’d include Hungarian military procurement from Ukraine. Since we have to spend a lot on the military anyway, Orbán is using it to buy goodwill from weapons exporters.
Trianon borders might be buying armaments from Ukraine? I guess business trumps good sense once again.It'll be interesting to see how the leadership of Hungary's neighbors react to these new provocations?Replies: @reiner Tor
I think people don’t care about the agricultural land in Vojvodina. Also it’s understood that Pozsony (Bratislava) is a Slovak city. The highest priority is Transylvania in any event, though it’s larger than Hungary itself, and mostly Romanian. So changing the borders is not on the agenda, certainly not for the foreseeable future. But if there were, probably the two Vienna Awards would be what people would especially want, which definitely excludes Pozsony and didn’t include yet any part of Vojvodina.
Regarding Subcarpathia, it’s low on the list of priorities, but for a number of reasons it’s important right now. The Hungarian strategy over the past three decades has been to create treaties with our neighbors, where
– we renounce any territorial demands, peaceful or otherwise
– they provide Hungarian language education for the ethnic minority
– we often provide additional funding for those schools, which they accept
This was started in December 1991 with Ukraine, before the Belovezha Accords. (Hungary was perhaps the first country to recognize Ukrainian independence.) This proved a great precedent for the other, more important neighbors, like Romania or Slovakia. Now Ukraine is rolling back all these, which could also set a bad precedent. This is why we are so sensitive to the sudden worsening of the situation for the Hungarian minority in Ukraine.
If I were Hungarian Vojvodina would be a priority. That place is a goldmine of mineral and agricultural resources, hard workers and nice architecture. And even a lot of the Serbs who live there are pretty tired of having to deal with the corruption in Belgrade.
Of course the best answer is to stop the 19th century nationalism nonsense and reunite the Habsburg domains under the Kaiser and Catholic Church.Replies: @reiner Tor, @Mr. Hack, @anonlb
- they provide Hungarian language education for the ethnic minority
- we often provide additional funding for those schools, which they accept This was started in December 1991 with Ukraine, before the Belovezha Accords. (Hungary was perhaps the first country to recognize Ukrainian independence.) This proved a great precedent for the other, more important neighbors, like Romania or Slovakia. Now Ukraine is rolling back all these, which could also set a bad precedent. This is why we are so sensitive to the sudden worsening of the situation for the Hungarian minority in Ukraine.Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
I personally know Hungarians who want Pozsony back. Some of them are even convinced that 50% of the city is “crypto Hungarian”, just speaking Slovak in public but ready any moment to throw off the yoke. Supposedly a Bratislava cab driver (Hungarian speaking) told them this.
If I were Hungarian Vojvodina would be a priority. That place is a goldmine of mineral and agricultural resources, hard workers and nice architecture. And even a lot of the Serbs who live there are pretty tired of having to deal with the corruption in Belgrade.
Of course the best answer is to stop the 19th century nationalism nonsense and reunite the Habsburg domains under the Kaiser and Catholic Church.
Somebody will mention war crimes during WWII from both sides, but this pales in comparision with any other struggle in that conflict.
Hungarian people in Serbia are in many cases better citizens and more loyal to state than native serbs. Hungary even proposed citizenship to almost all Vojvodina residents who can pass language test without much reaction from serbian side.
Main hungarian problem in Vojvodina is low fertility and emigration. Also, Serbs expelled from other parts of YU are mainly settled in Vojvodina, and serbians are now strong majority in Vojvodina.
Vojvodina independence was pushed by Germany until they come to terms with Vucic which slowly but constantly transforms Serbia in just another low wage german(and globalist) colony.
Hungary is one of rare EU states which asks for fast Serbia EU membership.
All in all, any serious confrontation between Serbia and Hungary is very unlikely.Replies: @Blinky Bill
Yep.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_J._Finkelstein
But unfortunately you are correct in one respect, Hungary's military is currently in no state to wage revanchist wars. But that's for the fifth generation after Trianon.Replies: @Peter Akuleyev, @Fluesterwitz
So, with regard to Hungary’s current power level, Orban should have kept silent, should he not?
If I were Hungarian Vojvodina would be a priority. That place is a goldmine of mineral and agricultural resources, hard workers and nice architecture. And even a lot of the Serbs who live there are pretty tired of having to deal with the corruption in Belgrade.
Of course the best answer is to stop the 19th century nationalism nonsense and reunite the Habsburg domains under the Kaiser and Catholic Church.Replies: @reiner Tor, @Mr. Hack, @anonlb
Oh, so you know football ultras.
There’s no master plan to reconquer anything. But demographics is destiny. He is planning to increase birthrates. He is not jealous, he invited the Serbs to his demographics conferences, and I think other neighbors are welcome, too.
Sorry, not according to the last census of the area taken in 2001:
Nationality Number in 2001 (%) in 1989 (%) growth (%)
Ukrainians (incl. Rusyns) 1,010,100 80.5 78.4 +3.4%
Hungarians 151,500 12.1 12.5 -2.7%
Romanians 32,100 2.6 2.4 +9.0%
Russians 31,000 2.5 4.0 -37.3%
Roma 14,000 1.1 1.0 +15.4%
Slovaks 5,600 0.5 0.6 -22.3%
Germans 3,500 0.3 0.3 +3.0%
Because in 2001 the Ukrainian government (in both Kyiv and in Uzhhorod) didn’t recognize any separate “Rusyn” nationality, they weren’t included here. Since then, I believe that at the oblast level Rusyns are now considered such, so you could add a whole 10.100 of them as well if you like, and subtract that amount from the 1,010,000 Ukrainians, if it makes you feel any better. 🙂
I think if there’s going to be a deal with Ukraine (your president made some noises to the effect), it’d include Hungarian military procurement from Ukraine. Since we have to spend a lot on the military anyway, Orbán is using it to buy goodwill from weapons exporters.Replies: @Mr. Hack
Strange, that Orban, who is making noises about possibly increasing Hungary to its pre –
Trianon borders might be buying armaments from Ukraine? I guess business trumps good sense once again.
It’ll be interesting to see how the leadership of Hungary’s neighbors react to these new provocations?
It’s also strange that you consider Orbán’s words to be provocations, but not Ukrainian deeds like actually breaking the treaty of friendship and greatly restricting Hungarian language education, or repeatedly damaging the monument erected to commemorate the Magyars’ arrival in the Carpathian basin (also based on an agreement), or Ukrainian nationalist activists (from Lviv perhaps?) arriving in Uzhgorod (Ungvár) and vandalizing things and threatening the locals.
Also, the Orbán speech was not some kind of irredentist battle cry. What about these passages:Yes, Ukraine is left out, probably because of the conflict, but do you seriously believe that irredentist aspirations against Ukraine are more important than against Slovakia or especially Romania? If we gave them up against Slovakia (as Orbán seems to be doing in the speech), do you think he’d keep it alive against the much stronger Ukraine, for the far less significant Zakarpattia?Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP
https://azonnali.hu/cikk/20181005_mi-lenne-ha-tamadnanak-a-szlovakok-vagy-az-ukranok-csapataink-harcban-allnak-4
(The second half of the article is about a war with Slovakia. The Slovaks would need to wage a Blitzkrieg against us, or else they’d be beaten back.)
(The articles assume our neighbors attacking us, but perhaps we could assume that if they can easily reach Budapest when attacking us, then attacking them wouldn’t be a cakewalk either.)Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack
Although I haven’t had the time to read your suggested article in its entirety (only skimmed it and hope to get to it sometime today in its entirety), I’d also like to bring to your attention an article that quite impressively encapsulates a lot of the drama that’s going on between Ukraine, Hungary and Russia (and even Poland too). It’s quite well written and is the product of a “neutral” publication called the “New Eaastern Europe”. Here’s a taste of what you will find within this enlightening piece:
https://neweasterneurope.eu/2020/05/06/foreign-interference-in-the-zakarpattia-region-of-ukraine-the-2019-elections-and-beyond/
Trianon borders might be buying armaments from Ukraine? I guess business trumps good sense once again.It'll be interesting to see how the leadership of Hungary's neighbors react to these new provocations?Replies: @reiner Tor
He is not buying. I said that he would probably be buying as part of a deal.
It’s also strange that you consider Orbán’s words to be provocations, but not Ukrainian deeds like actually breaking the treaty of friendship and greatly restricting Hungarian language education, or repeatedly damaging the monument erected to commemorate the Magyars’ arrival in the Carpathian basin (also based on an agreement), or Ukrainian nationalist activists (from Lviv perhaps?) arriving in Uzhgorod (Ungvár) and vandalizing things and threatening the locals.
Also, the Orbán speech was not some kind of irredentist battle cry. What about these passages:
Yes, Ukraine is left out, probably because of the conflict, but do you seriously believe that irredentist aspirations against Ukraine are more important than against Slovakia or especially Romania? If we gave them up against Slovakia (as Orbán seems to be doing in the speech), do you think he’d keep it alive against the much stronger Ukraine, for the far less significant Zakarpattia?
Self-declared native language in Ukraine, 2001 census:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c7/81/e9/c781e93fc69159ca0e878ae248b3d444.png
It would leave a few scattered Russian pockets (Crimea and Donbas of course are already gone) but not many.
Or they could have modeled it on what was done in Latvia - base it on native, century-old patterns. This would also leave the Hungarians alone.
It was clumsily and stupidly done by Ukraine.
That having been said, there was a problem with people in Ukraine finishing secondary school with no ability to speak the state language adequately. I don't think many states would tolerate that and some sort of remedy would have been appropriate.These weren't government acts. At least in one case it turned out to be Polish provocateurs working for Russia. Short of stationing a permanent guard at the monument there doesn't seem much that the Ukrainian government can do.
Uzhhorod is outside the Hungarian settlement zone and has very few Hungarians (about 7% of the population in 2001 though this number has been declining and is surely less now - there are more Russians (9.6%) in that city than Hungarians).Replies: @reiner Tor
Russia probably likes the conflict with Ukraine, but it couldn’t be able to stop an agreement between the two countries, if they decided to work through the differences.
It’s also strange that you consider Orbán’s words to be provocations, but not Ukrainian deeds like actually breaking the treaty of friendship and greatly restricting Hungarian language education, or repeatedly damaging the monument erected to commemorate the Magyars’ arrival in the Carpathian basin (also based on an agreement), or Ukrainian nationalist activists (from Lviv perhaps?) arriving in Uzhgorod (Ungvár) and vandalizing things and threatening the locals.
Also, the Orbán speech was not some kind of irredentist battle cry. What about these passages:Yes, Ukraine is left out, probably because of the conflict, but do you seriously believe that irredentist aspirations against Ukraine are more important than against Slovakia or especially Romania? If we gave them up against Slovakia (as Orbán seems to be doing in the speech), do you think he’d keep it alive against the much stronger Ukraine, for the far less significant Zakarpattia?Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP
Well, if Orban is truly interested in seeing the rights of all of Eastern Europe’s ethnicities preserved and safeguarded and wants to go forward and meet the future with them as equals, I’m all for it. Strange though, that he doesn’t mention enlarging the Visegrad group to help achieve these lofty goals?
As to the Hungarian language issue within Zakarpattya, it seems to me that all that the Ukrainian government did in this regard was to align the language policies more closely to European standards. The way things were going, a student of Hungarian descent could actually finish high school with less than a modicum of knowledge of Ukrainian.
The English (because that’s what people really mean when they say British) are among the most misunderstood races in the world in my opinion. Most seem to see the English as sort of like Jews, because they see the English through the lens of the Judaicised Norman aristocracy that rule the country.
The reality is England has one of the largest and most downtrodden white underclasses anywhere in the Western world, some (majority white) parts of England are among the poorest in Europe, yet most people don’t realise this. They think that all English people are basically rich and privileged from the “stolen wealth” and “spoils of empire” and to use the Jewish analogy, regard the rest of Europe and humanity as “goyim” compared to the English. However, the reality is the English aristocracy/upper class regard the English underclass as just as much “goyim” as the rest of humanity. They certainly haven’t benefited from any supposed “spoils of empire”.
I don’t find it that surprising though, it’s often difficult for outsiders to distinguish between a people and their ruling elite, and there are few Western countries where the common people are further removed from their ruling elite than England.
No, a medical doctor. But he is a half Hungarian who grew up in Austria and America so prone to believe all sorts of stories about a Hungarian renaissance.
The reality is England has one of the largest and most downtrodden white underclasses anywhere in the Western world, some (majority white) parts of England are among the poorest in Europe, yet most people don't realise this. They think that all English people are basically rich and privileged from the "stolen wealth" and "spoils of empire" and to use the Jewish analogy, regard the rest of Europe and humanity as "goyim" compared to the English. However, the reality is the English aristocracy/upper class regard the English underclass as just as much "goyim" as the rest of humanity. They certainly haven't benefited from any supposed "spoils of empire".
I don't find it that surprising though, it's often difficult for outsiders to distinguish between a people and their ruling elite, and there are few Western countries where the common people are further removed from their ruling elite than England.Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
That is because England is one of the few European countries that has not undergone a bloody revolution, catastrophic military defeat, and/or civil war in the last century. The sort of events that create a leveling effect.
Are Swedish elites really more egalitarian or just better at keeping a low profile? Although they never had the global wealth that British imperial elites managed to acquire.
Orban has plagiarized Bolsonaro’s presidential campaign slogan (Brasil acima de tudo, Deus acima de todos)!
Here’s the history of that slogan:
https://jornalhoraextra.com.br/coluna/de-onde-vem-o-slogan-brasil-acima-de-tudo/
It’s also strange that you consider Orbán’s words to be provocations, but not Ukrainian deeds like actually breaking the treaty of friendship and greatly restricting Hungarian language education, or repeatedly damaging the monument erected to commemorate the Magyars’ arrival in the Carpathian basin (also based on an agreement), or Ukrainian nationalist activists (from Lviv perhaps?) arriving in Uzhgorod (Ungvár) and vandalizing things and threatening the locals.
Also, the Orbán speech was not some kind of irredentist battle cry. What about these passages:Yes, Ukraine is left out, probably because of the conflict, but do you seriously believe that irredentist aspirations against Ukraine are more important than against Slovakia or especially Romania? If we gave them up against Slovakia (as Orbán seems to be doing in the speech), do you think he’d keep it alive against the much stronger Ukraine, for the far less significant Zakarpattia?Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP
This struck me as a very stupid act by the Ukrainian government. It could have crafted the language reforms in such a way that the Russian-language schools would close but the Hungarian ones would not: simply make it so the new laws do not apply when over 50% of the population of a given raion (county) declare a minority language to be their native language:
Self-declared native language in Ukraine, 2001 census:
It would leave a few scattered Russian pockets (Crimea and Donbas of course are already gone) but not many.
Or they could have modeled it on what was done in Latvia – base it on native, century-old patterns. This would also leave the Hungarians alone.
It was clumsily and stupidly done by Ukraine.
That having been said, there was a problem with people in Ukraine finishing secondary school with no ability to speak the state language adequately. I don’t think many states would tolerate that and some sort of remedy would have been appropriate.
These weren’t government acts. At least in one case it turned out to be Polish provocateurs working for Russia. Short of stationing a permanent guard at the monument there doesn’t seem much that the Ukrainian government can do.
Uzhhorod is outside the Hungarian settlement zone and has very few Hungarians (about 7% of the population in 2001 though this number has been declining and is surely less now – there are more Russians (9.6%) in that city than Hungarians).
Regarding language skills, it’s pretty difficult, since Hungarian is quite distant from European languages (even English skills are among the lowest in Europe, even in the former communist bloc), but the Subcarpathian Hungarians I met (very small sample) all could speak Ukrainian at least to some extent. (I cannot speak myself, so no way to check.) One of them gave me several example sentences of Russian and Ukrainian, it seemed she could speak both at least at intermediate level, perhaps higher. She claimed Russian was easier, but in everyday life Ukrainian was more useful.
The big issue I saw was that the Hungarian schools don’t have Ukrainian teachers at all, despite repeated requests. This means that the scheduled Ukrainian classes are held by ethnic Hungarian teachers, many of whom were originally trained as Russian (as foreign language) teachers, but they said they’d need preferably native speaker teachers who are trained to teach Ukrainian as a foreign language. The issue is that no such teachers want to work in the remotest corner of the country, in a place where people speak Hungarian in everyday life.
However, if Ukraine was serious about teaching the language to Hungarians, it would organize to send a few dozens or maybe a hundred such teachers to the Hungarian area.
It takes us to the next point. There are not enough teachers fluent enough in Ukrainian to teach their subjects in Ukrainian. The idea is that they would give some years of training to the existing Hungarian teachers, but if they are unable to complete their training (many are well over fifty years old...), then there’s no plan B. This law clearly wasn’t thought through by anyone.
I agree that there would be smarter ways to reach the exact same goals, but now I guess both Ukraine and Hungary are at least as much interested in saving face as in the actual original issue.
I don’t see any restoration happening, apart from the demographic collapse-induced dismantlement of Croatia between Hungary, Italy and Serbia
When did the Huns cross any ocean?
Or any sea for that matter...Replies: @Anuxicus, @romar
Poetic license…
If I were Hungarian Vojvodina would be a priority. That place is a goldmine of mineral and agricultural resources, hard workers and nice architecture. And even a lot of the Serbs who live there are pretty tired of having to deal with the corruption in Belgrade.
Of course the best answer is to stop the 19th century nationalism nonsense and reunite the Habsburg domains under the Kaiser and Catholic Church.Replies: @reiner Tor, @Mr. Hack, @anonlb
The Habsburg Empire’s time has come and gone and will never return. Too much history has transpired for a “return”. I don’t see any real support for such a project among the nationalities involved, besides the romantic musings of a few armchair historians. In the case of Ukraine, the provinces of Galicia, Bukovina and Zakarpattya are all comfortable existing within a Ukrainian state. A similar and more realistic project would be the enlargement of the Visegrad group.
If I were Hungarian Vojvodina would be a priority. That place is a goldmine of mineral and agricultural resources, hard workers and nice architecture. And even a lot of the Serbs who live there are pretty tired of having to deal with the corruption in Belgrade.
Of course the best answer is to stop the 19th century nationalism nonsense and reunite the Habsburg domains under the Kaiser and Catholic Church.Replies: @reiner Tor, @Mr. Hack, @anonlb
Regarding Vojvodina: hungarians are majority only in northern part. Today Serbia is probably most hungarian minority frendly state, and this is result of many exYU internal problems and solutions, as well as of suprisingly good relations between serbian and hungarian nationalists as well as common people.
Somebody will mention war crimes during WWII from both sides, but this pales in comparision with any other struggle in that conflict.
Hungarian people in Serbia are in many cases better citizens and more loyal to state than native serbs. Hungary even proposed citizenship to almost all Vojvodina residents who can pass language test without much reaction from serbian side.
Main hungarian problem in Vojvodina is low fertility and emigration. Also, Serbs expelled from other parts of YU are mainly settled in Vojvodina, and serbians are now strong majority in Vojvodina.
Vojvodina independence was pushed by Germany until they come to terms with Vucic which slowly but constantly transforms Serbia in just another low wage german(and globalist) colony.
Hungary is one of rare EU states which asks for fast Serbia EU membership.
All in all, any serious confrontation between Serbia and Hungary is very unlikely.
Somebody will mention war crimes during WWII from both sides, but this pales in comparision with any other struggle in that conflict.
Hungarian people in Serbia are in many cases better citizens and more loyal to state than native serbs. Hungary even proposed citizenship to almost all Vojvodina residents who can pass language test without much reaction from serbian side.
Main hungarian problem in Vojvodina is low fertility and emigration. Also, Serbs expelled from other parts of YU are mainly settled in Vojvodina, and serbians are now strong majority in Vojvodina.
Vojvodina independence was pushed by Germany until they come to terms with Vucic which slowly but constantly transforms Serbia in just another low wage german(and globalist) colony.
Hungary is one of rare EU states which asks for fast Serbia EU membership.
All in all, any serious confrontation between Serbia and Hungary is very unlikely.Replies: @Blinky Bill
Here’s a 2018 article (use some online translation service) about how a war with Romania would look like: we might be able to stop them at the river Tisza, but more likely they’d reach the outskirts of Budapest.
https://azonnali.hu/cikk/20180925_tamadnak-a-romanok-csapataink-harcban-allnak-3
(This is a part of a series, they went through the scenarios with each of our neighbors. Spoiler: most of them are stronger than us.)Replies: @Peter Akuleyev, @Anatoly Karlin
Cool.
I wonder if Hungary would be able to “revise Trianon” was to spend 10% of GDP on the military for half a decade + no intervention from outside parties.
That’s for the fifth generation to find out!
No one, no one at all wants new North Korea in the middle of Europe.Of course, patriotic talk is patriotic talk and global business is global business.https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-24/orban-and-europe-s-other-anti-immigrant-leaders-have-a-secretHungary, Poland, and Serbia are among countries quietly importing workers to cope with a labor crisis.
https://dailynewshungary.com/workers-from-india-will-save-the-hungarian-dairy-industry/Workers from India will save the Hungarian dairy industry
https://helpers.hu/work-permit/how-to-bring-work-force-from-india-to-hungary/Are you planning to move or expand your business to the EU? Then Hungary is the best choice, with quick and easy company formation, instant EU VAT number, and simple work permit procedure if you want to bring work force from India – or any other part of the world.Work permit for Indian citizensIn Hungary, there are no restrictions on nationality when it comes to work permit and residence permit application. As a result, you can bring work force from India or anywhere else; if all requirements are met, the application process will be fast and smooth.
Bucharest is catching up, probably has already.
Romania will converge to a far higher level of GloboHomo than Hungary thanks to its pro-American status and high English language knowledge.
Doesn’t really matter what the personal convictions of the Great Leaders are.
What matters is the values that youth grow up with, which then proceed to create their own, new reality.
Young intelligent people are very sensitive to hypocrisy and corruption. Just as Soviet ideology bred cynicism about Communism, the Mullahs in Iran have discredited Islam with intelligent Iranians, and „woke“ professors and media are increasingly driving smart Americans to sites like these, leaders like Orban are discrediting nationalism among young educated Hungarians, who are voting with their feet.Replies: @New guy, @Anatoly Karlin
https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/romania-420.jpg
Romania will converge to a far higher level of GloboHomo than Hungary thanks to its pro-American status and high English language knowledge.Doesn't really matter what the personal convictions of the Great Leaders are.
What matters is the values that youth grow up with, which then proceed to create their own, new reality.Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Peter Akuleyev
You can feel the love in that photo. You should have told them you identify as a Person Of Colour.
I wonder if Hungary would be able to "revise Trianon" was to spend 10% of GDP on the military for half a decade + no intervention from outside parties.
That's for the fifth generation to find out!Replies: @another anon
You can bet if there is the even the slightest hint that this talk is meant seriously, there will be foreign interference.
No one, no one at all wants new North Korea in the middle of Europe.
Of course, patriotic talk is patriotic talk and global business is global business.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-24/orban-and-europe-s-other-anti-immigrant-leaders-have-a-secret
Hungary, Poland, and Serbia are among countries quietly importing workers to cope with a labor crisis.
https://dailynewshungary.com/workers-from-india-will-save-the-hungarian-dairy-industry/
Workers from India will save the Hungarian dairy industry
https://helpers.hu/work-permit/how-to-bring-work-force-from-india-to-hungary/
Are you planning to move or expand your business to the EU? Then Hungary is the best choice, with quick and easy company formation, instant EU VAT number, and simple work permit procedure if you want to bring work force from India – or any other part of the world.
Work permit for Indian citizens
In Hungary, there are no restrictions on nationality when it comes to work permit and residence permit application. As a result, you can bring work force from India or anywhere else; if all requirements are met, the application process will be fast and smooth.
https://www.unz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/romania-420.jpg
Romania will converge to a far higher level of GloboHomo than Hungary thanks to its pro-American status and high English language knowledge.Doesn't really matter what the personal convictions of the Great Leaders are.
What matters is the values that youth grow up with, which then proceed to create their own, new reality.Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Peter Akuleyev
What matters is the values that youth grow up with, which then proceed to create their own, new reality.
Young intelligent people are very sensitive to hypocrisy and corruption. Just as Soviet ideology bred cynicism about Communism, the Mullahs in Iran have discredited Islam with intelligent Iranians, and „woke“ professors and media are increasingly driving smart Americans to sites like these, leaders like Orban are discrediting nationalism among young educated Hungarians, who are voting with their feet.
Iran - Neocon propaganda, most young Iranians are fine with the regime, even if they'd prefer less Islamist moralfagging.
US - Actually Unz Review has already been widely banned and censored, and by all indications it is the youth who would be most OK with it (being the most anti-free speech demographic).
Young intelligent people are very sensitive to hypocrisy and corruption. Just as Soviet ideology bred cynicism about Communism, the Mullahs in Iran have discredited Islam with intelligent Iranians, and „woke“ professors and media are increasingly driving smart Americans to sites like these, leaders like Orban are discrediting nationalism among young educated Hungarians, who are voting with their feet.Replies: @New guy, @Anatoly Karlin
Is this really so? This is a genuine question, I really don’t know, but I am surprised because I have spoken with several WN Germans who want to move to Hungary, and some have friends who already did it.
Wow, look at Orban threatening those globalist strongholds of Romania, Serbia, Slovakia, and Slovenia! BASED!
Young intelligent people are very sensitive to hypocrisy and corruption. Just as Soviet ideology bred cynicism about Communism, the Mullahs in Iran have discredited Islam with intelligent Iranians, and „woke“ professors and media are increasingly driving smart Americans to sites like these, leaders like Orban are discrediting nationalism among young educated Hungarians, who are voting with their feet.Replies: @New guy, @Anatoly Karlin
Soviet Union – Was a materialist society that increasingly openly failed by its own criteria; such considerations are less relevant to societies that justify themselves by appeal to God or ethnicity.
Iran – Neocon propaganda, most young Iranians are fine with the regime, even if they’d prefer less Islamist moralfagging.
US – Actually Unz Review has already been widely banned and censored, and by all indications it is the youth who would be most OK with it (being the most anti-free speech demographic).
Self-declared native language in Ukraine, 2001 census:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c7/81/e9/c781e93fc69159ca0e878ae248b3d444.png
It would leave a few scattered Russian pockets (Crimea and Donbas of course are already gone) but not many.
Or they could have modeled it on what was done in Latvia - base it on native, century-old patterns. This would also leave the Hungarians alone.
It was clumsily and stupidly done by Ukraine.
That having been said, there was a problem with people in Ukraine finishing secondary school with no ability to speak the state language adequately. I don't think many states would tolerate that and some sort of remedy would have been appropriate.These weren't government acts. At least in one case it turned out to be Polish provocateurs working for Russia. Short of stationing a permanent guard at the monument there doesn't seem much that the Ukrainian government can do.
Uzhhorod is outside the Hungarian settlement zone and has very few Hungarians (about 7% of the population in 2001 though this number has been declining and is surely less now - there are more Russians (9.6%) in that city than Hungarians).Replies: @reiner Tor
The nationalists held a threatening march in both Uzhorod and Beregovo (Berehove, Beregszász), the latter of which has a Hungarian plurality.
Regarding language skills, it’s pretty difficult, since Hungarian is quite distant from European languages (even English skills are among the lowest in Europe, even in the former communist bloc), but the Subcarpathian Hungarians I met (very small sample) all could speak Ukrainian at least to some extent. (I cannot speak myself, so no way to check.) One of them gave me several example sentences of Russian and Ukrainian, it seemed she could speak both at least at intermediate level, perhaps higher. She claimed Russian was easier, but in everyday life Ukrainian was more useful.
The big issue I saw was that the Hungarian schools don’t have Ukrainian teachers at all, despite repeated requests. This means that the scheduled Ukrainian classes are held by ethnic Hungarian teachers, many of whom were originally trained as Russian (as foreign language) teachers, but they said they’d need preferably native speaker teachers who are trained to teach Ukrainian as a foreign language. The issue is that no such teachers want to work in the remotest corner of the country, in a place where people speak Hungarian in everyday life.
However, if Ukraine was serious about teaching the language to Hungarians, it would organize to send a few dozens or maybe a hundred such teachers to the Hungarian area.
It takes us to the next point. There are not enough teachers fluent enough in Ukrainian to teach their subjects in Ukrainian. The idea is that they would give some years of training to the existing Hungarian teachers, but if they are unable to complete their training (many are well over fifty years old…), then there’s no plan B. This law clearly wasn’t thought through by anyone.
I agree that there would be smarter ways to reach the exact same goals, but now I guess both Ukraine and Hungary are at least as much interested in saving face as in the actual original issue.