Open Thread, 11/20/2016
RSS
Search Text Case Sensitive Exact Words Include Comments
List of Bookmarks
Went to Z & Y in San Francisco recently. Second time. Still have to give Mala in Houston better marks. A friend who has been to both agrees.
Been busy working recently. But obviously a lot is going on in science and non-science….
Follow @razibkhan
• Tags: Miscellaneous, Open Thread
English
Arabic
Chinese (Simplified)
Dutch
French
German
Hebrew
Hindi
Italian
Japanese
Korean
Persian
Polish
Portuguese
Russian
Spanish
Swedish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Any recommendations for Los Angeles or Orange County? Not looking for best ever, just really good food.
I know I am an old-fashioned, cranky guy, but whenever I see young hipsters taking pictures of their food at restaurants, I think of this:
A bit late in the day, but anyone have good suggestions/recipes for a Chinese food themed thanksgiving meal?
Diamond Plaza in Hacienda Heights has lots of good East Asian fare.
You mentioned a few weeks ago that you were reading the Unfinished Empire. Coincidentally, I read it earlier this year, and am thus very curious as to your thoughts on it. Personally, I found it rather underwhelming; I mostly took away from it that the process of building the British Empire was really messy, that (semi-)private actors played a notable role and that much of the territory nominally under British sovereignty was in reality ruled by local proxies.
Probably a sensitive question so no worries if this doesn’t get approved or answered…
I assume everyone here saw the whole “Hail/heil Trump” fiasco with Richard Spencer. One the articles being shared a lot in relation to that event is Allum Bokhari and Milos Yiannoplous’ An Establishment Conservative’s Guide to the Alt-Right which names Richard Spencer as one of the intellectual leaders of the alt-right. It also names you one and has a picture of you just below. I imagine this is an unwelcome association and attention, but I’d be curious to hear your thoughts.
as i said on twitter, i am not alt-right. i'm moderately conservative with libertarianish tendencies. they used the picture without asking. kind of getting annoyed by people asking me about being alt-right, a radio station even wanted me to talk about being alt-right.
as for richard, he's a problem for everyone he touched now because of his nuttiness. i mean, is it common knowledge that he played pick-up games with brendan nyhan at duke? the list goes on...Replies: @Twinkie, @Emma
lots of facts. no major theory. *after tamerlane* was better.
I assume everyone here saw the whole "Hail/heil Trump" fiasco with Richard Spencer. One the articles being shared a lot in relation to that event is Allum Bokhari and Milos Yiannoplous' An Establishment Conservative's Guide to the Alt-Right which names Richard Spencer as one of the intellectual leaders of the alt-right. It also names you one and has a picture of you just below. I imagine this is an unwelcome association and attention, but I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.Replies: @Razib Khan
It also names you one and has a picture of you just below.
as i said on twitter, i am not alt-right. i’m moderately conservative with libertarianish tendencies. they used the picture without asking. kind of getting annoyed by people asking me about being alt-right, a radio station even wanted me to talk about being alt-right.
as for richard, he’s a problem for everyone he touched now because of his nuttiness. i mean, is it common knowledge that he played pick-up games with brendan nyhan at duke? the list goes on…
For example, take a look at this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/lets-party-like-its-1933-inside-the-disturbing-alt-right-world-of-richard-spencer/2016/11/22/cf81dc74-aff7-11e6-840f-e3ebab6bcdd3_story.htmlNow, as I recall, Mr. Khan, I believe you mentioned before that you once knew him and that he was not a cretin. Considering his answer about the "white ethno-state" leaves me with two thoughts about him - either 1) he doesn't believe what he is selling, but he says these things to attract followers who do and to garner attention (I get the sense that he is VERY image conscious) or 2) he does believe in the monstrosity he peddles - probably because he hasn't seen real bloodshed and mass violence. In other words, he is either a con-man or a juvenile, but bloodthirsty psychopath.
And, of course, the cherry on the cake is his weird arrogance (as if he is Der Führer already) and hypocrisy:In other words, HE gets to decide who is and is not "white" and gets to live in his ethnostate. This is an unbelievable level of deluded sense of grandeur for himself. It is also a particularly jejune expression of power-worship, like a bully with a sandbox who decides which among his friends can play in it.
And "Let's party like it's 1933"? Good grief. My wife's late grandfather, the man I loved the most in her family and with whom I spent hours discussing war experiences, left pieces of himself in France and Germany fighting the Nazis. I think he would be sickened by the likes of him were he still alive.
Oh, and I did not know who this Tila Tequila character was until I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2016/11/21/d-c-restaurant-apologizes-after-hosting-alt-right-dinner-with-sieg-heil-salute/
What a moronic person. She - an ethnic Vietnamese - shows up to a white nationalist gathering with blonde hair and Hitler-salutes, and she doesn't even know how how to spell "Sieg Heil" properly in German. A real credit to her parents, I am sure.Replies: @Razib Khan, @Lord Jeff Sessions, @Talha, @Razib Khan, @syonredux
I thought that the Unz Review was an alt-right site, although as a foreigner, my understanding of the American political tendencies is really limited. Is that uncorrect or are your views not in agreement with those of the other bloggers of the site?Replies: @Razib Khan, @German_reader
as i said on twitter, i am not alt-right. i'm moderately conservative with libertarianish tendencies. they used the picture without asking. kind of getting annoyed by people asking me about being alt-right, a radio station even wanted me to talk about being alt-right.
as for richard, he's a problem for everyone he touched now because of his nuttiness. i mean, is it common knowledge that he played pick-up games with brendan nyhan at duke? the list goes on...Replies: @Twinkie, @Emma
Is it just nuttiness? Because it strikes me as something a bit more sinister.
For example, take a look at this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/lets-party-like-its-1933-inside-the-disturbing-alt-right-world-of-richard-spencer/2016/11/22/cf81dc74-aff7-11e6-840f-e3ebab6bcdd3_story.html
Now, as I recall, Mr. Khan, I believe you mentioned before that you once knew him and that he was not a cretin. Considering his answer about the “white ethno-state” leaves me with two thoughts about him – either 1) he doesn’t believe what he is selling, but he says these things to attract followers who do and to garner attention (I get the sense that he is VERY image conscious) or 2) he does believe in the monstrosity he peddles – probably because he hasn’t seen real bloodshed and mass violence. In other words, he is either a con-man or a juvenile, but bloodthirsty psychopath.
And, of course, the cherry on the cake is his weird arrogance (as if he is Der Führer already) and hypocrisy:
In other words, HE gets to decide who is and is not “white” and gets to live in his ethnostate. This is an unbelievable level of deluded sense of grandeur for himself. It is also a particularly jejune expression of power-worship, like a bully with a sandbox who decides which among his friends can play in it.
And “Let’s party like it’s 1933”? Good grief. My wife’s late grandfather, the man I loved the most in her family and with whom I spent hours discussing war experiences, left pieces of himself in France and Germany fighting the Nazis. I think he would be sickened by the likes of him were he still alive.
Oh, and I did not know who this Tila Tequila character was until I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2016/11/21/d-c-restaurant-apologizes-after-hosting-alt-right-dinner-with-sieg-heil-salute/
What a moronic person. She – an ethnic Vietnamese – shows up to a white nationalist gathering with blonde hair and Hitler-salutes, and she doesn’t even know how how to spell “Sieg Heil” properly in German. A real credit to her parents, I am sure.
but playacting the nationalist socialist obviously makes that all irrelevant. you don't go there. period.
that being said, he's not the huge player he makes it out to be.Replies: @Twinkie, @Talha
Honestly, the antics sound a lot like what I remember watching in the 80's with pro-wrestling - just less sweat and guys in their chuddies.
We have 50 states, why don't we give a couple of contiguous ones to these guys and like-minded fellows to start their 'new dawn'? They'll either run it into the ground or prove out their white-ethnic paradise; either way sounds like a bonus to me. Then the rest of the country can follow suit or not, depending on results.
I know, this is all hypothetical, but I'd like to see them at least be more local scale and practical about their grand designs. You know like call for true freedom to associate and allow for the legality of regional housing discrimination. But it seems they want the whole country all at once to take the plunge on this dream of theirs.
Peace.Replies: @iffen
i talked with him on the phone several times and had a professional relationship with him in the late 2000s. before he was a WN. or at least he said to me he wasn't a WN (since he had just gotten out of a relationship with an asian woman at the time i took him at his word).
Per wikipedia, she is also a former playboy model.
I suspect she was abused as a child.
For example, take a look at this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/lets-party-like-its-1933-inside-the-disturbing-alt-right-world-of-richard-spencer/2016/11/22/cf81dc74-aff7-11e6-840f-e3ebab6bcdd3_story.htmlNow, as I recall, Mr. Khan, I believe you mentioned before that you once knew him and that he was not a cretin. Considering his answer about the "white ethno-state" leaves me with two thoughts about him - either 1) he doesn't believe what he is selling, but he says these things to attract followers who do and to garner attention (I get the sense that he is VERY image conscious) or 2) he does believe in the monstrosity he peddles - probably because he hasn't seen real bloodshed and mass violence. In other words, he is either a con-man or a juvenile, but bloodthirsty psychopath.
And, of course, the cherry on the cake is his weird arrogance (as if he is Der Führer already) and hypocrisy:In other words, HE gets to decide who is and is not "white" and gets to live in his ethnostate. This is an unbelievable level of deluded sense of grandeur for himself. It is also a particularly jejune expression of power-worship, like a bully with a sandbox who decides which among his friends can play in it.
And "Let's party like it's 1933"? Good grief. My wife's late grandfather, the man I loved the most in her family and with whom I spent hours discussing war experiences, left pieces of himself in France and Germany fighting the Nazis. I think he would be sickened by the likes of him were he still alive.
Oh, and I did not know who this Tila Tequila character was until I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2016/11/21/d-c-restaurant-apologizes-after-hosting-alt-right-dinner-with-sieg-heil-salute/
What a moronic person. She - an ethnic Vietnamese - shows up to a white nationalist gathering with blonde hair and Hitler-salutes, and she doesn't even know how how to spell "Sieg Heil" properly in German. A real credit to her parents, I am sure.Replies: @Razib Khan, @Lord Jeff Sessions, @Talha, @Razib Khan, @syonredux
i can’t vouch for his sincerity. we’ve long been out of touch. he has a postmodern sensibility about these things, so i don’t what is, and isn’t, serious.
but playacting the nationalist socialist obviously makes that all irrelevant. you don’t go there. period.
that being said, he’s not the huge player he makes it out to be.
He seems like a parody of some sort:Geez, I don't know where to start.
Why does he get so much time on MSM? Is it because he is not a toothless cretin who screams "white power" at every turn? Because he contradicts MSM's image of what a white nationalist is supposed to be, what with his haircut and normal looks and "Brooks Brothers suits"?
*BB is what interns wear on the Hill and doesn't go with a "$5,000 Swiss watches." Mr. Spencer should get a different wardrobe consultant... or a visit to Savile Row in London or at least to Field English Custom Tailors in Georgetown after he eats at Maggiano's.Replies: @iffen, @Razib Khan, @CupOfCanada, @notanon
Peace.Replies: @RaceRealist88
For example, take a look at this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/lets-party-like-its-1933-inside-the-disturbing-alt-right-world-of-richard-spencer/2016/11/22/cf81dc74-aff7-11e6-840f-e3ebab6bcdd3_story.htmlNow, as I recall, Mr. Khan, I believe you mentioned before that you once knew him and that he was not a cretin. Considering his answer about the "white ethno-state" leaves me with two thoughts about him - either 1) he doesn't believe what he is selling, but he says these things to attract followers who do and to garner attention (I get the sense that he is VERY image conscious) or 2) he does believe in the monstrosity he peddles - probably because he hasn't seen real bloodshed and mass violence. In other words, he is either a con-man or a juvenile, but bloodthirsty psychopath.
And, of course, the cherry on the cake is his weird arrogance (as if he is Der Führer already) and hypocrisy:In other words, HE gets to decide who is and is not "white" and gets to live in his ethnostate. This is an unbelievable level of deluded sense of grandeur for himself. It is also a particularly jejune expression of power-worship, like a bully with a sandbox who decides which among his friends can play in it.
And "Let's party like it's 1933"? Good grief. My wife's late grandfather, the man I loved the most in her family and with whom I spent hours discussing war experiences, left pieces of himself in France and Germany fighting the Nazis. I think he would be sickened by the likes of him were he still alive.
Oh, and I did not know who this Tila Tequila character was until I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2016/11/21/d-c-restaurant-apologizes-after-hosting-alt-right-dinner-with-sieg-heil-salute/
What a moronic person. She - an ethnic Vietnamese - shows up to a white nationalist gathering with blonde hair and Hitler-salutes, and she doesn't even know how how to spell "Sieg Heil" properly in German. A real credit to her parents, I am sure.Replies: @Razib Khan, @Lord Jeff Sessions, @Talha, @Razib Khan, @syonredux
I listened to a podcast he did and he wasn’t familiar with the idea of a disparate impact lawsuit. He’s very into this nietzschean stuff, and totally ungrounded from the real world.
but playacting the nationalist socialist obviously makes that all irrelevant. you don't go there. period.
that being said, he's not the huge player he makes it out to be.Replies: @Twinkie, @Talha
I do not know what that means – would you mind elaborating just a bit?
You mean like where he takes credit for Trump’s victory?
He seems like a parody of some sort:
Geez, I don’t know where to start.
Why does he get so much time on MSM? Is it because he is not a toothless cretin who screams “white power” at every turn? Because he contradicts MSM’s image of what a white nationalist is supposed to be, what with his haircut and normal looks and “Brooks Brothers suits”?
*BB is what interns wear on the Hill and doesn’t go with a “$5,000 Swiss watches.” Mr. Spencer should get a different wardrobe consultant… or a visit to Savile Row in London or at least to Field English Custom Tailors in Georgetown after he eats at Maggiano’s.
It serves their purpose.
Spencer and the others like him have no mass following. They are continually in a scrum for devotees and dollars.
Why are you so invested with this one guy.
I have spent a fair amount of time here at Unz challenging 88s and racists in the comment sections. I don't remember seeing you show up with many comments except occasionally where Talha has pushed back against bad information on Muslims.
You don't seem to be able to make distinctions. You make everything into either/or. Just like you kept insisting that I was a WN when I kept telling you that I was not.Replies: @Twinkie
i mean that he is obviously working in some ways to shock people. not because he thinks what he says is true, but because it will alter the nature of the discourse. i mean, we're talking about him here.
@iffen - that applies to your comments there too. It wasn't just the MSM giving this guy a platform years ago.
@Razib
That sucks.
One thing on the white nationalist/supremacist front - I'd point out that a lot of those types (including Bannon) are pretty anti-Catholic too. So the view of what "white" is can be even narrower than just Christian, and more WASP.
The media don't want to talk about the economic stuff because the media is owned by the sort of people (in the US) who have benefited most from off-shoring.
Hence them looking for ways to forge a narrative where Trump's success is all identity or at least most identity.
He seems like a parody of some sort:Geez, I don't know where to start.
Why does he get so much time on MSM? Is it because he is not a toothless cretin who screams "white power" at every turn? Because he contradicts MSM's image of what a white nationalist is supposed to be, what with his haircut and normal looks and "Brooks Brothers suits"?
*BB is what interns wear on the Hill and doesn't go with a "$5,000 Swiss watches." Mr. Spencer should get a different wardrobe consultant... or a visit to Savile Row in London or at least to Field English Custom Tailors in Georgetown after he eats at Maggiano's.Replies: @iffen, @Razib Khan, @CupOfCanada, @notanon
Why does he get so much time on MSM?
It serves their purpose.
Spencer and the others like him have no mass following. They are continually in a scrum for devotees and dollars.
Why are you so invested with this one guy.
I have spent a fair amount of time here at Unz challenging 88s and racists in the comment sections. I don’t remember seeing you show up with many comments except occasionally where Talha has pushed back against bad information on Muslims.
You don’t seem to be able to make distinctions. You make everything into either/or. Just like you kept insisting that I was a WN when I kept telling you that I was not.
I don't appreciate the attempt or the implication to make it sound like I am obsessed with this character, which is a too clever-by-half way of ad hominem.I don't wish to make things personal here, but you seem to suffer from reading comprehension (of your own writing, to boot).
Let me clarify. I do not know who you are. I do not know whether you are or are not a white nationalist. The only thing I can infer is to draw a conclusion of what you do or do not believe based on your comments.
Earlier I wrote a short critique of Spencer's ideas and plans, which include bloody and violent ethnic cleansing. You responded by writing the following:By your own words, you are implying that pursuing a white ethnostate and violent ethnic cleaning of non-whites is "rational for whites."
What you wrote above would make sense if Spencer's ideology were "garden variety" pro-white advocacy. But it's not. It very clearly includes infantile fantasies of white (his, in particular) will to power and eradication of the "mud" people. And you think that's "rational for white" in a world of identity politics. I don't know what to tell you, except to say that it sounds a lot like a roundabout endorsement of Spencer's ideas if not him as a person or a leader.Replies: @iffen
For example, take a look at this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/lets-party-like-its-1933-inside-the-disturbing-alt-right-world-of-richard-spencer/2016/11/22/cf81dc74-aff7-11e6-840f-e3ebab6bcdd3_story.htmlNow, as I recall, Mr. Khan, I believe you mentioned before that you once knew him and that he was not a cretin. Considering his answer about the "white ethno-state" leaves me with two thoughts about him - either 1) he doesn't believe what he is selling, but he says these things to attract followers who do and to garner attention (I get the sense that he is VERY image conscious) or 2) he does believe in the monstrosity he peddles - probably because he hasn't seen real bloodshed and mass violence. In other words, he is either a con-man or a juvenile, but bloodthirsty psychopath.
And, of course, the cherry on the cake is his weird arrogance (as if he is Der Führer already) and hypocrisy:In other words, HE gets to decide who is and is not "white" and gets to live in his ethnostate. This is an unbelievable level of deluded sense of grandeur for himself. It is also a particularly jejune expression of power-worship, like a bully with a sandbox who decides which among his friends can play in it.
And "Let's party like it's 1933"? Good grief. My wife's late grandfather, the man I loved the most in her family and with whom I spent hours discussing war experiences, left pieces of himself in France and Germany fighting the Nazis. I think he would be sickened by the likes of him were he still alive.
Oh, and I did not know who this Tila Tequila character was until I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2016/11/21/d-c-restaurant-apologizes-after-hosting-alt-right-dinner-with-sieg-heil-salute/
What a moronic person. She - an ethnic Vietnamese - shows up to a white nationalist gathering with blonde hair and Hitler-salutes, and she doesn't even know how how to spell "Sieg Heil" properly in German. A real credit to her parents, I am sure.Replies: @Razib Khan, @Lord Jeff Sessions, @Talha, @Razib Khan, @syonredux
Hey Twinkie,
Honestly, the antics sound a lot like what I remember watching in the 80’s with pro-wrestling – just less sweat and guys in their chuddies.
We have 50 states, why don’t we give a couple of contiguous ones to these guys and like-minded fellows to start their ‘new dawn’? They’ll either run it into the ground or prove out their white-ethnic paradise; either way sounds like a bonus to me. Then the rest of the country can follow suit or not, depending on results.
I know, this is all hypothetical, but I’d like to see them at least be more local scale and practical about their grand designs. You know like call for true freedom to associate and allow for the legality of regional housing discrimination. But it seems they want the whole country all at once to take the plunge on this dream of theirs.
Peace.
This is so off the wall ridiculous, I know you are just be satirical.
but I’d like to see them at least be more local scale and practical about their grand designs.
Really?Replies: @Talha
as i said on twitter, i am not alt-right. i'm moderately conservative with libertarianish tendencies. they used the picture without asking. kind of getting annoyed by people asking me about being alt-right, a radio station even wanted me to talk about being alt-right.
as for richard, he's a problem for everyone he touched now because of his nuttiness. i mean, is it common knowledge that he played pick-up games with brendan nyhan at duke? the list goes on...Replies: @Twinkie, @Emma
“as i said on twitter, i am not alt-right. i’m moderately conservative with libertarianish tendencies. ”
I thought that the Unz Review was an alt-right site, although as a foreigner, my understanding of the American political tendencies is really limited. Is that uncorrect or are your views not in agreement with those of the other bloggers of the site?
ron posts all sorts of stuff. he has told me it is "alternative". period. but to be honest at this point a lot of the content and commenters are alt-right inflected or dominated (a lot of it is from feeds cross-posted).
and no, in general i am not like a lot of the others who post in this space. i think that's obvious ;-)Replies: @RaceRealist88
Honestly, the antics sound a lot like what I remember watching in the 80's with pro-wrestling - just less sweat and guys in their chuddies.
We have 50 states, why don't we give a couple of contiguous ones to these guys and like-minded fellows to start their 'new dawn'? They'll either run it into the ground or prove out their white-ethnic paradise; either way sounds like a bonus to me. Then the rest of the country can follow suit or not, depending on results.
I know, this is all hypothetical, but I'd like to see them at least be more local scale and practical about their grand designs. You know like call for true freedom to associate and allow for the legality of regional housing discrimination. But it seems they want the whole country all at once to take the plunge on this dream of theirs.
Peace.Replies: @iffen
We have 50 states, why don’t we give a couple of contiguous ones to these guys and like-minded fellows to start their ‘new dawn’? They’ll either run it into the ground or prove out their white-ethnic paradise; either way sounds like a bonus to me. Then the rest of the country can follow suit or not, depending on results.
This is so off the wall ridiculous, I know you are just be satirical.
but I’d like to see them at least be more local scale and practical about their grand designs.
Really?
Again, I'm not taking those guys too seriously at this point - which is why I made the analogy to pro-wrestling - maybe others are. The general concern that the average White person has should be taken seriously and that to me comes down to three major things:
1) Only White people, culture and history are open game for public denigration
2) Only Whites are not allowed to self-identify or form collectives
3) Policies (economic and social) that favor other ethnicities to the detriment of Whites
Did I miss out on anything major? All of these seem to be legitimate concerns - of course, the term 'White' itself is a bit elusive. I have a bit of skin in the game; all my kids look White (I mean White) since I married a woman from Swedish background. Funny thing is, they likely wouldn't be considered White by the Spencer types because they are Muslim or only half-White.
Every group has their squeaky wheels that like to steal the show - I can't count the number of times MSM gives interviews with Anjem Chaudry. They love to distract with sensationalism.
Peace.Replies: @Razib Khan, @Talha, @iffen
Neo-Nazis have been around for ages and I don’t think their numbers have greatly increased in this country recently (at least not yet), but their visibility certainly has.
Part of this is certainly because Trump and his team (especially Breitbart) played around with the “Alt-Right” to solidify their White base (not because the White base is heavily “Alt-Right” but because they are an identity group and this kind of crap helped to signal that the campaign was willing to use this identity (partly because the group and the campaign are indeed moderately racist; perhaps partly as a reaction to two decades of Left wing promotion and use of smaller identity groups)). I doubt that the campaign really wanted to promote Nazi-like race ideas, but they certainly ended up doing that to some extent.
A part is probably the Democrats and their political sympathizers thinking that highlighting this nasty group will smear Trump more than it actually promotes the Nazis (they may be wrong about that. Instead of “fringing” him, it more likely mainstreams them).
And the last but not least part is probably the media’s tendency to focus on car wrecks, the nastier the better.
The part I am not clear about is whether some deeper crisis of the modern liberal nation state (broadly defined, thus including most Republicans as well as Democrats) means this crap could actually be coming back.
I realize these are just typical “musings”. Is there a more data-based and solidly argued article out there?
but their visibility certainly has.
Isn’t this attributable to the changes in media?
promote Nazi-like race ideas, but they certainly ended up doing that to some extent.
I don’t see how the attempt by MSM to tie Trump to these groups means that the campaign was responsible for the promotion of neo-Nazism. MSM started touting these groups and individuals, not the Trump campaign.
means this crap could actually be coming back.
This crap can always come back. Whether it is or not is a matter of perspective, for most of MSM it is back in full force.
but playacting the nationalist socialist obviously makes that all irrelevant. you don't go there. period.
that being said, he's not the huge player he makes it out to be.Replies: @Twinkie, @Talha
Fixed it for ya’.
Agreed. Which hearkens back to Twinkie’s point – are these a bunch of immature adults having fun? Where do these bloggers their funding? That is the most interesting question to me. Is it all just grassroots donations?
Peace.
This is so off the wall ridiculous, I know you are just be satirical.
but I’d like to see them at least be more local scale and practical about their grand designs.
Really?Replies: @Talha
Hey iffen,
Guilty as charged, but my proposal still seems (despite my intended hyperbole) more plausible than what they are proposing.
Sure – I mean, propose to start with an ethno-city or entho-county at least before you move onto ethno-state – doesn’t that just make sense? They have a grand plan; let’s see a prototype…
Again, I’m not taking those guys too seriously at this point – which is why I made the analogy to pro-wrestling – maybe others are. The general concern that the average White person has should be taken seriously and that to me comes down to three major things:
1) Only White people, culture and history are open game for public denigration
2) Only Whites are not allowed to self-identify or form collectives
3) Policies (economic and social) that favor other ethnicities to the detriment of Whites
Did I miss out on anything major? All of these seem to be legitimate concerns – of course, the term ‘White’ itself is a bit elusive. I have a bit of skin in the game; all my kids look White (I mean White) since I married a woman from Swedish background. Funny thing is, they likely wouldn’t be considered White by the Spencer types because they are Muslim or only half-White.
Every group has their squeaky wheels that like to steal the show – I can’t count the number of times MSM gives interviews with Anjem Chaudry. They love to distract with sensationalism.
Peace.
i agree.
Peace.Replies: @Slon
2) Only Whites are not allowed to self-identify or form collectives
3) Policies (economic and social) that favor other ethnicities to the detriment of WhitesYes, and it definitely drives the growth of resentment among some whites. This resentment is not the same thing as racism or white nationalism. My opinion is that it is time for all AA and quotas to end. It is a legitimate political question. If we continue to have quotas, can we have upper limit quotas for Jews and Asian Americans? the term ‘White’ itself is a bit elusive.Yes, and this is one reason that it is very unlikely that Nazism and white nationalism will take off. This will not prevent politicians from exploiting racial and ethnic differences to their advantage.Replies: @Razib Khan
For example, take a look at this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/lets-party-like-its-1933-inside-the-disturbing-alt-right-world-of-richard-spencer/2016/11/22/cf81dc74-aff7-11e6-840f-e3ebab6bcdd3_story.htmlNow, as I recall, Mr. Khan, I believe you mentioned before that you once knew him and that he was not a cretin. Considering his answer about the "white ethno-state" leaves me with two thoughts about him - either 1) he doesn't believe what he is selling, but he says these things to attract followers who do and to garner attention (I get the sense that he is VERY image conscious) or 2) he does believe in the monstrosity he peddles - probably because he hasn't seen real bloodshed and mass violence. In other words, he is either a con-man or a juvenile, but bloodthirsty psychopath.
And, of course, the cherry on the cake is his weird arrogance (as if he is Der Führer already) and hypocrisy:In other words, HE gets to decide who is and is not "white" and gets to live in his ethnostate. This is an unbelievable level of deluded sense of grandeur for himself. It is also a particularly jejune expression of power-worship, like a bully with a sandbox who decides which among his friends can play in it.
And "Let's party like it's 1933"? Good grief. My wife's late grandfather, the man I loved the most in her family and with whom I spent hours discussing war experiences, left pieces of himself in France and Germany fighting the Nazis. I think he would be sickened by the likes of him were he still alive.
Oh, and I did not know who this Tila Tequila character was until I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2016/11/21/d-c-restaurant-apologizes-after-hosting-alt-right-dinner-with-sieg-heil-salute/
What a moronic person. She - an ethnic Vietnamese - shows up to a white nationalist gathering with blonde hair and Hitler-salutes, and she doesn't even know how how to spell "Sieg Heil" properly in German. A real credit to her parents, I am sure.Replies: @Razib Khan, @Lord Jeff Sessions, @Talha, @Razib Khan, @syonredux
I believe you mentioned before that you once knew him and that he was not a cretin
i talked with him on the phone several times and had a professional relationship with him in the late 2000s. before he was a WN. or at least he said to me he wasn’t a WN (since he had just gotten out of a relationship with an asian woman at the time i took him at his word).
I thought that the Unz Review was an alt-right site, although as a foreigner, my understanding of the American political tendencies is really limited. Is that uncorrect or are your views not in agreement with those of the other bloggers of the site?Replies: @Razib Khan, @German_reader
I thought that the Unz Review was an alt-right site, although as a foreigner, my understanding of the American political tendencies is really limited. Is that uncorrect or are your views not in agreement with those of the other bloggers of the site?
ron posts all sorts of stuff. he has told me it is “alternative”. period. but to be honest at this point a lot of the content and commenters are alt-right inflected or dominated (a lot of it is from feeds cross-posted).
and no, in general i am not like a lot of the others who post in this space. i think that’s obvious 😉
I agree. I love your blog. Consistently great information, no bullshit only truth and no spin. Wish everyone was like this.
Again, I'm not taking those guys too seriously at this point - which is why I made the analogy to pro-wrestling - maybe others are. The general concern that the average White person has should be taken seriously and that to me comes down to three major things:
1) Only White people, culture and history are open game for public denigration
2) Only Whites are not allowed to self-identify or form collectives
3) Policies (economic and social) that favor other ethnicities to the detriment of Whites
Did I miss out on anything major? All of these seem to be legitimate concerns - of course, the term 'White' itself is a bit elusive. I have a bit of skin in the game; all my kids look White (I mean White) since I married a woman from Swedish background. Funny thing is, they likely wouldn't be considered White by the Spencer types because they are Muslim or only half-White.
Every group has their squeaky wheels that like to steal the show - I can't count the number of times MSM gives interviews with Anjem Chaudry. They love to distract with sensationalism.
Peace.Replies: @Razib Khan, @Talha, @iffen
The general concern that the average White person has should be taken seriously and that to me comes down to three major things:
i agree.
He’s very into this nietzschean stuff, and totally ungrounded from the real world.
he’s on the front page of every major newspaper right now. how ungrounded? just saying, is he ‘crazy like a fox’?
Peace.Replies: @RaceRealist88
A lot of these people beg for donations constantly. Kind of ironic that they’re looking for handouts.
Peace.
ron posts all sorts of stuff. he has told me it is "alternative". period. but to be honest at this point a lot of the content and commenters are alt-right inflected or dominated (a lot of it is from feeds cross-posted).
and no, in general i am not like a lot of the others who post in this space. i think that's obvious ;-)Replies: @RaceRealist88
“and no, in general i am not like a lot of the others who post in this space. i think that’s obvious”
I agree. I love your blog. Consistently great information, no bullshit only truth and no spin. Wish everyone was like this.
He seems like a parody of some sort:Geez, I don't know where to start.
Why does he get so much time on MSM? Is it because he is not a toothless cretin who screams "white power" at every turn? Because he contradicts MSM's image of what a white nationalist is supposed to be, what with his haircut and normal looks and "Brooks Brothers suits"?
*BB is what interns wear on the Hill and doesn't go with a "$5,000 Swiss watches." Mr. Spencer should get a different wardrobe consultant... or a visit to Savile Row in London or at least to Field English Custom Tailors in Georgetown after he eats at Maggiano's.Replies: @iffen, @Razib Khan, @CupOfCanada, @notanon
I do not know what that means – would you mind elaborating just a bit?
i mean that he is obviously working in some ways to shock people. not because he thinks what he says is true, but because it will alter the nature of the discourse. i mean, we’re talking about him here.
re, $, some of them, more than you expect, have family wealth, or a fixed income of some sort. richard is in that case. i would say he’s “lower upper class”, but above “upper middle class.” kevin macdonald has a university pension. etc.
Again, I'm not taking those guys too seriously at this point - which is why I made the analogy to pro-wrestling - maybe others are. The general concern that the average White person has should be taken seriously and that to me comes down to three major things:
1) Only White people, culture and history are open game for public denigration
2) Only Whites are not allowed to self-identify or form collectives
3) Policies (economic and social) that favor other ethnicities to the detriment of Whites
Did I miss out on anything major? All of these seem to be legitimate concerns - of course, the term 'White' itself is a bit elusive. I have a bit of skin in the game; all my kids look White (I mean White) since I married a woman from Swedish background. Funny thing is, they likely wouldn't be considered White by the Spencer types because they are Muslim or only half-White.
Every group has their squeaky wheels that like to steal the show - I can't count the number of times MSM gives interviews with Anjem Chaudry. They love to distract with sensationalism.
Peace.Replies: @Razib Khan, @Talha, @iffen
There is a caveat to #2 that I mentioned – which again is why this whole subject is a bit elusive; namely that certain sub-groups of Whites are allowed (sometimes even encouraged) to identify. My daughter tells me she has a very active Serbian club in her high-school. This is different than, say, the French club (which she is a part of) which is language based. The Serbian club is definitely an ethnic heritage club. There is also a large Polish community in our area which self-identify and also Bosnians. Irish pubs, advertising that they are indeed an ‘Irish Pub’ abound.
Peace.
I thought that the Unz Review was an alt-right site, although as a foreigner, my understanding of the American political tendencies is really limited. Is that uncorrect or are your views not in agreement with those of the other bloggers of the site?Replies: @Razib Khan, @German_reader
If you compare Unz review with Spencer’s Radix journal (or indeed the stuff he wrote at Takimag a few years ago) there are obvious differences, Unz review has some loony commenters but it’s comparatively moderate and has a spectrum of different viewpoints. Spencer really is pretty hardcore identitarian/WN, that was clear already 5-6 years ago.
Again, I'm not taking those guys too seriously at this point - which is why I made the analogy to pro-wrestling - maybe others are. The general concern that the average White person has should be taken seriously and that to me comes down to three major things:
1) Only White people, culture and history are open game for public denigration
2) Only Whites are not allowed to self-identify or form collectives
3) Policies (economic and social) that favor other ethnicities to the detriment of Whites
Did I miss out on anything major? All of these seem to be legitimate concerns - of course, the term 'White' itself is a bit elusive. I have a bit of skin in the game; all my kids look White (I mean White) since I married a woman from Swedish background. Funny thing is, they likely wouldn't be considered White by the Spencer types because they are Muslim or only half-White.
Every group has their squeaky wheels that like to steal the show - I can't count the number of times MSM gives interviews with Anjem Chaudry. They love to distract with sensationalism.
Peace.Replies: @Razib Khan, @Talha, @iffen
Sure – I mean, propose to start with an ethno-city or entho-county at least before you move onto ethno-state – doesn’t that just make sense?
I don’t have to tell you that it would not be constitutional. Just like it was not constitutional for the southern states to maintain apartheid lite. There are mostly white states and counties already so you can see for yourself what it might look like. 🙂
1) Only White people, culture and history are open game for public denigration
2) Only Whites are not allowed to self-identify or form collectives
3) Policies (economic and social) that favor other ethnicities to the detriment of Whites
Yes, and it definitely drives the growth of resentment among some whites. This resentment is not the same thing as racism or white nationalism.
My opinion is that it is time for all AA and quotas to end. It is a legitimate political question. If we continue to have quotas, can we have upper limit quotas for Jews and Asian Americans?
the term ‘White’ itself is a bit elusive.
Yes, and this is one reason that it is very unlikely that Nazism and white nationalism will take off. This will not prevent politicians from exploiting racial and ethnic differences to their advantage.
one of the things that annoys me about "white nationalists" is that they racialize islam. obviously there are bosniaks who are 'whiter' (in complexion) than a lot of southern europeans. they just need to be more explicit that one has to be from a christian/post-christian background.Replies: @iffen
Hey RR88,
Which may explain why they don’t miss a chance to be in the spotlight even with off-the-wall comments; free advertising!
Peace.
2) Only Whites are not allowed to self-identify or form collectives
3) Policies (economic and social) that favor other ethnicities to the detriment of WhitesYes, and it definitely drives the growth of resentment among some whites. This resentment is not the same thing as racism or white nationalism. My opinion is that it is time for all AA and quotas to end. It is a legitimate political question. If we continue to have quotas, can we have upper limit quotas for Jews and Asian Americans? the term ‘White’ itself is a bit elusive.Yes, and this is one reason that it is very unlikely that Nazism and white nationalism will take off. This will not prevent politicians from exploiting racial and ethnic differences to their advantage.Replies: @Razib Khan
Yes, and this is one reason that it is very unlikely that Nazism and white nationalism will take off. This will not prevent politicians from exploiting racial and ethnic differences to their advantage.
one of the things that annoys me about “white nationalists” is that they racialize islam. obviously there are bosniaks who are ‘whiter’ (in complexion) than a lot of southern europeans. they just need to be more explicit that one has to be from a christian/post-christian background.
Hey Razib,
The Bosnians in our area could pass for Nordics any day of the week. And the religious ones are quite – uh – fecund; they are giving the Indo-paks and Arabs a run for their money. Lots of little green/blue-eyed, freckled, blonde Muslim kids running around in the mosque I frequent.
They still have a tough time with our food though – low spice tolerance.
Peace.
They still have a tough time with our food though - low spice tolerance.
Peace.Replies: @Razib Khan
“The Prophet, PBUH, sayeth that the men who shall not consumeth the spice in proportions which induce sweat upon the faith, they shall burn in hellfire in recompense.” – Al Bukhari
But hey, you know, you gotta face the *heat* - either in this world or the next! By the way, I just finished off my jar of achar last night, gotta get some more:
https://www.google.com/search?q=achar&espv=2&biw=1229&bih=608&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXu7vWz7_QAhWKqlQKHVweAkYQ_AUIBigB&dpr=1.56
I don't know if Bengalis are into achar, but since I have to refill, any suggestions?
'He who controls the spice controls the universe.' - Dune
Peace.
Now this, ladies and gentlemen, is how you subtely bring a thread back to food where it started!Replies: @Razib Khan
That ain’t even a weak hadith! 😉
But hey, you know, you gotta face the *heat* – either in this world or the next! By the way, I just finished off my jar of achar last night, gotta get some more:
https://www.google.com/search?q=achar&espv=2&biw=1229&bih=608&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXu7vWz7_QAhWKqlQKHVweAkYQ_AUIBigB&dpr=1.56
I don’t know if Bengalis are into achar, but since I have to refill, any suggestions?
‘He who controls the spice controls the universe.’ – Dune
Peace.
Now this, ladies and gentlemen, is how you subtely bring a thread back to food where it started!
But hey, you know, you gotta face the *heat* - either in this world or the next! By the way, I just finished off my jar of achar last night, gotta get some more:
https://www.google.com/search?q=achar&espv=2&biw=1229&bih=608&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXu7vWz7_QAhWKqlQKHVweAkYQ_AUIBigB&dpr=1.56
I don't know if Bengalis are into achar, but since I have to refill, any suggestions?
'He who controls the spice controls the universe.' - Dune
Peace.
Now this, ladies and gentlemen, is how you subtely bring a thread back to food where it started!Replies: @Razib Khan
all good men eat achaar!
Anyway, so you know what achar is - awesome! Any good brands from the Bengali side of the border you can suggest? Nothing with pickled fish though - I got my limits! I found a Bangladeshi store (fish mart of course!) not too far from me that I was going to checkout.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sundarbans-Fish-Bazar/145522465480625
Peace.
one of the things that annoys me about "white nationalists" is that they racialize islam. obviously there are bosniaks who are 'whiter' (in complexion) than a lot of southern europeans. they just need to be more explicit that one has to be from a christian/post-christian background.Replies: @iffen
At first I thought annoy was an odd description but I think it fits. Obviously they can’t come up with any rational definition of who qualifies. What do they do with ME peoples who are Christian? Some say Jews are white, Chinese are okay with some, it is completely arbitrary. I am not going to belong to any club where the membership qualifications are not transparent.
anyway, i'm a geneticist. so this sort of thing would annoy me of course.
Yiddish speaking and genetically half European Ashkenazis were considered Semites, but Afro-Asiatic Kabyles with no recent European ancestry of any sort were considered lost Aryans.
Or Japanese being honorary Aryans. Or even more more funnily, the actual Semite Grand Mufti of Jerusalem being granted honorary Aryan status.
The same is happening now. With people like that Viet pornstar being considered honorary white, or that half-Iranian white nationalist Jason Reza being considered so as well. In fact, those honorary whites have more value for white nationalists than whites, at least for now.
'Race' is just an expedient vehicle for them to invent necessary in-groups and out-groups that serve their agenda. And as soon as reality clashes with their idealized vision of their in-group, like white Balkanites being Muslims, they become Turk/Arab or whatever rape-babies, despite the fact that Bosnians are genetically more European than almost all Southern Europeans.
ME xtians occupy weird position. the racialist ‘kinist’ movement often cites rushdoony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rousas_Rushdoony but genetically as an armenian he’d be more distinct from most europeans than any balkan xtian is likely to be (whether albanian, rumelian turk, or slav).
anyway, i’m a geneticist. so this sort of thing would annoy me of course.
Peace.Replies: @Slon
You beat me to this point, but I feel it needs to be emphasized and elaborated. Not only do we have clubs and associations for just about every white subgroup, there are also businesses, holidays, scholarships, etc. The trade association for my industry holds its meetings in a Swedish Cultural Center. None of this is challenged by anyone. On the other hand, White identity with a capital W is a construct that historically has been activated almost exclusively in a racial supremacist context, which is why associations built around White identity are perceived as problematic.
White identity with a capital W is a construct that historically has been activated almost exclusively in a racial supremacist context
I see these as always fringe groups. Where have "White" supremacist ever ruled?Replies: @Slon
These are excellent points. I have wondered, is it because these guys are a bit confused or too mixed to belong to any specific subgroup (Welsh, Irish, Italian, Basque, etc.) and thus 'White' is their only meaningful identity? I mean, is that enough to unite them? It hasn't been enough to unite Europe for centuries (or keep them from plowing over each other's cities every few decades). Maybe this works only in the American context where all these White subgroups can coalesce. To me, 'White' truly only takes on any meaning when contrasted to non-Whites (but they aren't even sure who those are or aren't). I mean Chechens are White - heck, they are from the Caucasus! - but they wouldn't really be invited to the 'Whites-only' party.
It's kind of like Black - if you know the difference between say a Sengalese vs African American - then you know that it is likely easier for the Sengalese immigrant to marry a Punjabi immigrant than it is an African American.
To me, this is all fine; if one want to start a generic 'White' club - well, more power to you, have fun! Something tells me, the 'White' club qualifications will be quite arbitrary and whimsical - as iffen and others pointed out.
Anyway...it gets complicated once you dig further...far more complicated and the incoherence* starts bubbling to the surface.
Peace.
*Note: Incoherence here refers to the ideas of the WNs, not the legitimate concerns I mentioned before.Replies: @Slon, @iffen, @syonredux
Simply has to do with immediate convenience.
Yiddish speaking and genetically half European Ashkenazis were considered Semites, but Afro-Asiatic Kabyles with no recent European ancestry of any sort were considered lost Aryans.
Or Japanese being honorary Aryans. Or even more more funnily, the actual Semite Grand Mufti of Jerusalem being granted honorary Aryan status.
The same is happening now. With people like that Viet pornstar being considered honorary white, or that half-Iranian white nationalist Jason Reza being considered so as well. In fact, those honorary whites have more value for white nationalists than whites, at least for now.
‘Race’ is just an expedient vehicle for them to invent necessary in-groups and out-groups that serve their agenda. And as soon as reality clashes with their idealized vision of their in-group, like white Balkanites being Muslims, they become Turk/Arab or whatever rape-babies, despite the fact that Bosnians are genetically more European than almost all Southern Europeans.
As you say , white identity would be a new construction. Nazism does not qualify because they excluded many whites, Slavs for example. Looking at the history of the US it is clear enough that many races and ethnicities were given 2nd class treatment. There must be a fear that if whites coalesce as one identity they would again treat all non-whites (however this gets defined) as 2nd class citizens. This in spite of the fact that whites have been in the forefront of eliminating 2nd class citizenship. I don’t think you can create a new “identity” based on white in the US. Maybe someday if whites are a small minority.
White identity with a capital W is a construct that historically has been activated almost exclusively in a racial supremacist context
I see these as always fringe groups. Where have “White” supremacist ever ruled?
My basic point was that it is misleading to state that whites are not permitted to associate. Plenty of perfectly acceptable associations are built around identities that are exclusively white.Replies: @iffen, @syonredux
At his conference he opened with a dramatic poetry reading set to montage of European looking things playing in the background (marble statues, forests, alps). He also designed a goofy looking alt-right logo, that was supposed to have some artistic meaning. In contrast to a lot of other people on the alt-right (or whatever you want to call that general sort of intellectual space) he doesn’t seem interested in engaging with real world issues like “head start”, housing policy, affirmative action, crime etc. That’s what I meant by “ungrounded from the real world”.
But yes, certainly he knows how to get his name in the news. I’m curious how he is able to maintain this lifestyle, I’m sure being a professional white nationalist doesn’t pay very well. Or maybe it does, I wouldn’t know. It says on wikipedia that his dad is an opthalmologist, so is he just mooching off of him?
Hey Slon,
These are excellent points. I have wondered, is it because these guys are a bit confused or too mixed to belong to any specific subgroup (Welsh, Irish, Italian, Basque, etc.) and thus ‘White’ is their only meaningful identity? I mean, is that enough to unite them? It hasn’t been enough to unite Europe for centuries (or keep them from plowing over each other’s cities every few decades). Maybe this works only in the American context where all these White subgroups can coalesce. To me, ‘White’ truly only takes on any meaning when contrasted to non-Whites (but they aren’t even sure who those are or aren’t). I mean Chechens are White – heck, they are from the Caucasus! – but they wouldn’t really be invited to the ‘Whites-only’ party.
It’s kind of like Black – if you know the difference between say a Sengalese vs African American – then you know that it is likely easier for the Sengalese immigrant to marry a Punjabi immigrant than it is an African American.
To me, this is all fine; if one want to start a generic ‘White’ club – well, more power to you, have fun! Something tells me, the ‘White’ club qualifications will be quite arbitrary and whimsical – as iffen and others pointed out.
Anyway…it gets complicated once you dig further…far more complicated and the incoherence* starts bubbling to the surface.
Peace.
*Note: Incoherence here refers to the ideas of the WNs, not the legitimate concerns I mentioned before.
Good point Talha, I have wondered about this as well.
In my limited experience, I have known a few ethnic whites and some of them didn’t take 2nd place to some of my down home peeps in their contempt for anyone they considered non-white, so this would only be part of the story.
a generic ‘White’ club
This would be so self-conscious and awkward. I don’t see how someone could pull it off with a straight face.
I made a statement to commenter Slon that has set me to thinking as to whether I was correct in my assumptions. These WNs must be retrofitting history so as to make countries like Great Britain into a “White” nation. Pax Brittanica wasn’t put together by the British but by white people. By the same token the SJWs and their followers must view it the same and have a collective social memory like Steve says of the Jews who are always hearing the Cossacks coming, but the SJWs always see white supremacists coming.
Reading a great book on The Reformation (already learned about whether it should be reformation, The Reformation, or reformations). I just finished reading about the German Peasant War of 1525. Really deadly, my peeps with pitchforks and sickles going up against artillery and heavy cavalry didn’t have a chance.Replies: @syonredux, @syonredux
1) he is focused on ‘metapolitics’. richard’s issue set orientation is actually not very conservative (he is a prochoice agnostic who is tolerant of gays, for example). he admits this. basically if you are white, it’s all right, as long as you aren’t anti-white.
2) richard has family money on both sides that he can tap into from what i recall. it’s not just that his father is a medical doctor. i believe he co-owns an apt. complex in montana with his mother, so he literally collects rents!
3) richard has connections to deep pocketed elements of the racialist right (regnery family money).
4) finally, $5,000 watch and ski club memberships aside, richard is (was?) pretty OK with living a more spartan bohemian life in keeping with his nontraditional career path. back when he ran taki’s he lived in brooklyn.
Bringing it back to food – Thanksgiving is around the bend after all – halal turkey!!!
Anyway, so you know what achar is – awesome! Any good brands from the Bengali side of the border you can suggest? Nothing with pickled fish though – I got my limits! I found a Bangladeshi store (fish mart of course!) not too far from me that I was going to checkout.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sundarbans-Fish-Bazar/145522465480625
Peace.
White identity with a capital W is a construct that historically has been activated almost exclusively in a racial supremacist context
I see these as always fringe groups. Where have "White" supremacist ever ruled?Replies: @Slon
American slavery, Jim Crow, apartheid… I agree that post-1970s White identity movements have been pushed to the fringe, but in US they have been recently coalescing in an inchoate (so far) way partly as a reaction to demographic shifts and contemporary identity politics. And yes, the boundaries of White identity are fluid and often conflicting among these movements.
My basic point was that it is misleading to state that whites are not permitted to associate. Plenty of perfectly acceptable associations are built around identities that are exclusively white.
Are you talking about activities that are created by and appeal primarily to whites. Are there "whites only" organizations? How do they define white?Replies: @Slon
These are excellent points. I have wondered, is it because these guys are a bit confused or too mixed to belong to any specific subgroup (Welsh, Irish, Italian, Basque, etc.) and thus 'White' is their only meaningful identity? I mean, is that enough to unite them? It hasn't been enough to unite Europe for centuries (or keep them from plowing over each other's cities every few decades). Maybe this works only in the American context where all these White subgroups can coalesce. To me, 'White' truly only takes on any meaning when contrasted to non-Whites (but they aren't even sure who those are or aren't). I mean Chechens are White - heck, they are from the Caucasus! - but they wouldn't really be invited to the 'Whites-only' party.
It's kind of like Black - if you know the difference between say a Sengalese vs African American - then you know that it is likely easier for the Sengalese immigrant to marry a Punjabi immigrant than it is an African American.
To me, this is all fine; if one want to start a generic 'White' club - well, more power to you, have fun! Something tells me, the 'White' club qualifications will be quite arbitrary and whimsical - as iffen and others pointed out.
Anyway...it gets complicated once you dig further...far more complicated and the incoherence* starts bubbling to the surface.
Peace.
*Note: Incoherence here refers to the ideas of the WNs, not the legitimate concerns I mentioned before.Replies: @Slon, @iffen, @syonredux
It will be if Whiteness is constituted as a cultural/social/political/economic identity. Things seem to be moving in that direction but we shall see.
These are excellent points. I have wondered, is it because these guys are a bit confused or too mixed to belong to any specific subgroup (Welsh, Irish, Italian, Basque, etc.) and thus 'White' is their only meaningful identity? I mean, is that enough to unite them? It hasn't been enough to unite Europe for centuries (or keep them from plowing over each other's cities every few decades). Maybe this works only in the American context where all these White subgroups can coalesce. To me, 'White' truly only takes on any meaning when contrasted to non-Whites (but they aren't even sure who those are or aren't). I mean Chechens are White - heck, they are from the Caucasus! - but they wouldn't really be invited to the 'Whites-only' party.
It's kind of like Black - if you know the difference between say a Sengalese vs African American - then you know that it is likely easier for the Sengalese immigrant to marry a Punjabi immigrant than it is an African American.
To me, this is all fine; if one want to start a generic 'White' club - well, more power to you, have fun! Something tells me, the 'White' club qualifications will be quite arbitrary and whimsical - as iffen and others pointed out.
Anyway...it gets complicated once you dig further...far more complicated and the incoherence* starts bubbling to the surface.
Peace.
*Note: Incoherence here refers to the ideas of the WNs, not the legitimate concerns I mentioned before.Replies: @Slon, @iffen, @syonredux
I have wondered, is it because these guys are a bit confused or too mixed to belong to any specific subgroup (Welsh, Irish, Italian, Basque, etc.) and thus ‘White’ is their only meaningful identity?
Good point Talha, I have wondered about this as well.
In my limited experience, I have known a few ethnic whites and some of them didn’t take 2nd place to some of my down home peeps in their contempt for anyone they considered non-white, so this would only be part of the story.
a generic ‘White’ club
This would be so self-conscious and awkward. I don’t see how someone could pull it off with a straight face.
I made a statement to commenter Slon that has set me to thinking as to whether I was correct in my assumptions. These WNs must be retrofitting history so as to make countries like Great Britain into a “White” nation. Pax Brittanica wasn’t put together by the British but by white people. By the same token the SJWs and their followers must view it the same and have a collective social memory like Steve says of the Jews who are always hearing the Cossacks coming, but the SJWs always see white supremacists coming.
Reading a great book on The Reformation (already learned about whether it should be reformation, The Reformation, or reformations). I just finished reading about the German Peasant War of 1525. Really deadly, my peeps with pitchforks and sickles going up against artillery and heavy cavalry didn’t have a chance.
Further point: The PC Left sees the world in essentially the same terms as WNs. WNs divide the world between "White people" and non-Whites. To the PC Left, everything is a struggle between People of Color (POC) and Whites.It's all very Manichean.Replies: @iffen
He seems like a parody of some sort:Geez, I don't know where to start.
Why does he get so much time on MSM? Is it because he is not a toothless cretin who screams "white power" at every turn? Because he contradicts MSM's image of what a white nationalist is supposed to be, what with his haircut and normal looks and "Brooks Brothers suits"?
*BB is what interns wear on the Hill and doesn't go with a "$5,000 Swiss watches." Mr. Spencer should get a different wardrobe consultant... or a visit to Savile Row in London or at least to Field English Custom Tailors in Georgetown after he eats at Maggiano's.Replies: @iffen, @Razib Khan, @CupOfCanada, @notanon
It’s not just the MSM that built him up. That Breitbart piece I mentioned points to Spencer as one of the intellectual leaders of the alt-right. They’re trying to pretend that never happened now, but it did. Spencer was someone a lot of alt-right folks were happy to point to before the full extent of his views became so widely known. And he had his profile from Taki’s. Obviously not the biggest fish in the world but I don’t think the association is entirely unfair here, at least not for Breitbart and Milos.
– that applies to your comments there too. It wasn’t just the MSM giving this guy a platform years ago.
@Razib
That sucks.
One thing on the white nationalist/supremacist front – I’d point out that a lot of those types (including Bannon) are pretty anti-Catholic too. So the view of what “white” is can be even narrower than just Christian, and more WASP.
My basic point was that it is misleading to state that whites are not permitted to associate. Plenty of perfectly acceptable associations are built around identities that are exclusively white.Replies: @iffen, @syonredux
Plenty of perfectly acceptable associations are built around identities that are exclusively white.
Are you talking about activities that are created by and appeal primarily to whites. Are there “whites only” organizations? How do they define white?
It will be interesting to see if European nationalist movements continue their cooperation if (when?) they gain power. Of course it’s probably all just alliances of convenience so means nothing, but it would be ironic if, as they destroy the EU project, WNs internalized EU’s European identity and reformulated it as pan-European White identity.
My basic point was that it is misleading to state that whites are not permitted to associate. Plenty of perfectly acceptable associations are built around identities that are exclusively white.Replies: @iffen, @syonredux
Sure, but the contrast lies in the fact that Euro-Americans are only allowed small-scale groupings (Irish, Italian, Greek, etc), whereas Blacks, East Asians, and Latin Americans are allowed to form massive identity-based organizations (National Council of La Raza, NAACP, etc).
Good point Talha, I have wondered about this as well.
In my limited experience, I have known a few ethnic whites and some of them didn’t take 2nd place to some of my down home peeps in their contempt for anyone they considered non-white, so this would only be part of the story.
a generic ‘White’ club
This would be so self-conscious and awkward. I don’t see how someone could pull it off with a straight face.
I made a statement to commenter Slon that has set me to thinking as to whether I was correct in my assumptions. These WNs must be retrofitting history so as to make countries like Great Britain into a “White” nation. Pax Brittanica wasn’t put together by the British but by white people. By the same token the SJWs and their followers must view it the same and have a collective social memory like Steve says of the Jews who are always hearing the Cossacks coming, but the SJWs always see white supremacists coming.
Reading a great book on The Reformation (already learned about whether it should be reformation, The Reformation, or reformations). I just finished reading about the German Peasant War of 1525. Really deadly, my peeps with pitchforks and sickles going up against artillery and heavy cavalry didn’t have a chance.Replies: @syonredux, @syonredux
Well, people are trying to do the same with East Asians and people from North Africa and the Middle East (cf the “MENA” movement)….
These are minority groups, working together as a group could bring benefits to the individual.
How would working with other "whites" benefit me?Replies: @syonredux
Are you talking about activities that are created by and appeal primarily to whites. Are there "whites only" organizations? How do they define white?Replies: @Slon
I was referring to my and Talha’s examples: Swedish Cultural Center, Serbian Club, The Polish House, St. Patrick’s Day, French-American scholarship fund, etc. Some are more exclusive than others, but what isn’t? Wasn’t there a black guy who joined the KKK? And Tila Tequila is apparently sieg heiling with the best of them. Anyways, all these are centered around white identities.
as pan-European White identity.
Even less likely than a pan-Arabic identity.
I am having quite a cognitive hiccup with the white nationalist, white supremacist, American slavery conundrum.
These are excellent points. I have wondered, is it because these guys are a bit confused or too mixed to belong to any specific subgroup (Welsh, Irish, Italian, Basque, etc.) and thus 'White' is their only meaningful identity? I mean, is that enough to unite them? It hasn't been enough to unite Europe for centuries (or keep them from plowing over each other's cities every few decades). Maybe this works only in the American context where all these White subgroups can coalesce. To me, 'White' truly only takes on any meaning when contrasted to non-Whites (but they aren't even sure who those are or aren't). I mean Chechens are White - heck, they are from the Caucasus! - but they wouldn't really be invited to the 'Whites-only' party.
It's kind of like Black - if you know the difference between say a Sengalese vs African American - then you know that it is likely easier for the Sengalese immigrant to marry a Punjabi immigrant than it is an African American.
To me, this is all fine; if one want to start a generic 'White' club - well, more power to you, have fun! Something tells me, the 'White' club qualifications will be quite arbitrary and whimsical - as iffen and others pointed out.
Anyway...it gets complicated once you dig further...far more complicated and the incoherence* starts bubbling to the surface.
Peace.
*Note: Incoherence here refers to the ideas of the WNs, not the legitimate concerns I mentioned before.Replies: @Slon, @iffen, @syonredux
Isn’t that how identities always work?Identity depends upon contrast. If everyone in the USA were Black/Sub-Saharan African, “Blackness” would swiftly lose salience, while intra-Black identities (West Indian, Nigerian, etc) would suddenly loom large.
Not necessarily - the more coherent identities can indeed be well defined. For instance, a Balochi is either a person who speaks that language or descends from one of the tribes that compose the Balochi people. A Muslim or a Catholic is also defined by specific parameters of belief. These are all irrespective of any definitions (or even existence) of out-groups.
White (as defined by people like Spencer) lacks coherence. It could possibly have a more solid definition and more coherence, but it would likely irk them that it contradicts what they want it to mean.
Peace.Replies: @syonredux
Well, people are trying to do the same with East Asians and people from North Africa and the Middle East (cf the “MENA” movement)….
These are minority groups, working together as a group could bring benefits to the individual.
How would working with other “whites” benefit me?
Good point Talha, I have wondered about this as well.
In my limited experience, I have known a few ethnic whites and some of them didn’t take 2nd place to some of my down home peeps in their contempt for anyone they considered non-white, so this would only be part of the story.
a generic ‘White’ club
This would be so self-conscious and awkward. I don’t see how someone could pull it off with a straight face.
I made a statement to commenter Slon that has set me to thinking as to whether I was correct in my assumptions. These WNs must be retrofitting history so as to make countries like Great Britain into a “White” nation. Pax Brittanica wasn’t put together by the British but by white people. By the same token the SJWs and their followers must view it the same and have a collective social memory like Steve says of the Jews who are always hearing the Cossacks coming, but the SJWs always see white supremacists coming.
Reading a great book on The Reformation (already learned about whether it should be reformation, The Reformation, or reformations). I just finished reading about the German Peasant War of 1525. Really deadly, my peeps with pitchforks and sickles going up against artillery and heavy cavalry didn’t have a chance.Replies: @syonredux, @syonredux
Bears repeating: WNs are essentially mirror images (or maybe “photo negatives”?) of Black Nationalists. Just as every African is the heir of Egypt, so, too, is every European the heir of Greece and Rome.
Further point: The PC Left sees the world in essentially the same terms as WNs. WNs divide the world between “White people” and non-Whites. To the PC Left, everything is a struggle between People of Color (POC) and Whites.It’s all very Manichean.
Doesn't this appeal to human nature ? Isn't playing to this one of the easiest ways to "win"?
These are minority groups, working together as a group could bring benefits to the individual.
How would working with other "whites" benefit me?Replies: @syonredux
By working against the POC who are working against you.
For example, take a look at this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/lets-party-like-its-1933-inside-the-disturbing-alt-right-world-of-richard-spencer/2016/11/22/cf81dc74-aff7-11e6-840f-e3ebab6bcdd3_story.htmlNow, as I recall, Mr. Khan, I believe you mentioned before that you once knew him and that he was not a cretin. Considering his answer about the "white ethno-state" leaves me with two thoughts about him - either 1) he doesn't believe what he is selling, but he says these things to attract followers who do and to garner attention (I get the sense that he is VERY image conscious) or 2) he does believe in the monstrosity he peddles - probably because he hasn't seen real bloodshed and mass violence. In other words, he is either a con-man or a juvenile, but bloodthirsty psychopath.
And, of course, the cherry on the cake is his weird arrogance (as if he is Der Führer already) and hypocrisy:In other words, HE gets to decide who is and is not "white" and gets to live in his ethnostate. This is an unbelievable level of deluded sense of grandeur for himself. It is also a particularly jejune expression of power-worship, like a bully with a sandbox who decides which among his friends can play in it.
And "Let's party like it's 1933"? Good grief. My wife's late grandfather, the man I loved the most in her family and with whom I spent hours discussing war experiences, left pieces of himself in France and Germany fighting the Nazis. I think he would be sickened by the likes of him were he still alive.
Oh, and I did not know who this Tila Tequila character was until I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2016/11/21/d-c-restaurant-apologizes-after-hosting-alt-right-dinner-with-sieg-heil-salute/
What a moronic person. She - an ethnic Vietnamese - shows up to a white nationalist gathering with blonde hair and Hitler-salutes, and she doesn't even know how how to spell "Sieg Heil" properly in German. A real credit to her parents, I am sure.Replies: @Razib Khan, @Lord Jeff Sessions, @Talha, @Razib Khan, @syonredux
I see her as a Vietnamese counterpart to the numerous White SJWs out there. You know, the “good” White people who constantly bemoan the awfulness of Europeans and do everything that they can to promote the interests of “People of Color.”
The very great majority of SJWs are white. Your analogy is very weak.
The reason why you wouldn’t want the majority to form an ethnic identity in opposition to everyone else seems pretty self-evident to me. First world identity politics is stupid but at least there’s no pogroms.
Invites the question of demographic change, though. What happens when the “non-ethnic identity holding” majority becomes a minority and is now subordinate to the massively ethnocentric former minority?
Honestly though the people I *really* want to be sure are thinking of me as a full-fledged fellow person are the rich bastards who own/program the robots when they inevitably automate me out of work.Replies: @syonredux
Sounds like an excellent situation to avoid, I hear pogroms are even worse when you’re on the receiving end. I’d like to think the people who are presently playing with matches would rapidly switch over to colour-blind liberal democracy if that seemed probable, but perhaps I’m too optimistic.
Honestly though the people I *really* want to be sure are thinking of me as a full-fledged fellow person are the rich bastards who own/program the robots when they inevitably automate me out of work.
Honestly though the people I *really* want to be sure are thinking of me as a full-fledged fellow person are the rich bastards who own/program the robots when they inevitably automate me out of work.Replies: @syonredux
Possibly. According to the SJWs on my campus, “color-blind liberal democracy” is simply a code-word for White supremacy.
Can POC as a group "do" liberal democracy?
Will the people of little or no color whose ancestors came up with the idea of liberal democracy be able to keep liberal democracy going in a highly stratified SES society of extreme differences politically riven by race and ethnicity?Replies: @Jason Liu
ron posts all sorts of stuff. he has told me it is “alternative”. period. but to be honest at this point a lot of the content and commenters are alt-right inflected or dominated (a lot of it is from feeds cross-posted).
and no, in general i am not like a lot of the others who post in this space. i think that’s obvious 😉
Thank you for your answer. Yes, I think that it is obvious when reading your posts. But I know that I am not always great at understanding people’s “subtitles” and when you moved your blog here, I wondered if it was some sort of statement about your opinions.
Anyway, I use the occasion to thank you for your great blog. I a am a long time fan and learnt many things reading your posts, and discovered books that I would very probably never have read otherwise (special thanks for mentioning “the Blank State”!)
According to the SJWs on my campus, “color-blind liberal democracy” is simply a code-word for White supremacy.
Can POC as a group “do” liberal democracy?
Will the people of little or no color whose ancestors came up with the idea of liberal democracy be able to keep liberal democracy going in a highly stratified SES society of extreme differences politically riven by race and ethnicity?
He seems like a parody of some sort:Geez, I don't know where to start.
Why does he get so much time on MSM? Is it because he is not a toothless cretin who screams "white power" at every turn? Because he contradicts MSM's image of what a white nationalist is supposed to be, what with his haircut and normal looks and "Brooks Brothers suits"?
*BB is what interns wear on the Hill and doesn't go with a "$5,000 Swiss watches." Mr. Spencer should get a different wardrobe consultant... or a visit to Savile Row in London or at least to Field English Custom Tailors in Georgetown after he eats at Maggiano's.Replies: @iffen, @Razib Khan, @CupOfCanada, @notanon
Trump’s success with non-traditional GOPe voters is maybe 2/3 economic and 1/3 identity.
The media don’t want to talk about the economic stuff because the media is owned by the sort of people (in the US) who have benefited most from off-shoring.
Hence them looking for ways to forge a narrative where Trump’s success is all identity or at least most identity.
Can POC as a group "do" liberal democracy?
Will the people of little or no color whose ancestors came up with the idea of liberal democracy be able to keep liberal democracy going in a highly stratified SES society of extreme differences politically riven by race and ethnicity?Replies: @Jason Liu
Heh. I strongly believe liberal democracy is the product of white European mentality. No non-white majority country will be a liberal democracy for very long, especially not under stress. Time will tell, I suppose.
Say for the sake of argument liberal democracy needs
- minimum average IQ
- minimum amount of some x factor
and assume x exists at some low percentage everywhere (say 5%) but the hajnal line thing selected for it specifically to some degree (say 20%)
then the liberal democracy capable population would be a varying percentage among all populations - which fits my experience.
You'd need a tipping point percentage though and the earliest populations to reach that tipping point would wobble a lot by definition (because they'd be just at the tipping point).
So if you knew what the required genes were I think you could probably populate an island with people selected from everywhere as long as they were tested to have all the required genes and it might work out.Replies: @iffen
Hey syonredux,
Not necessarily – the more coherent identities can indeed be well defined. For instance, a Balochi is either a person who speaks that language or descends from one of the tribes that compose the Balochi people. A Muslim or a Catholic is also defined by specific parameters of belief. These are all irrespective of any definitions (or even existence) of out-groups.
White (as defined by people like Spencer) lacks coherence. It could possibly have a more solid definition and more coherence, but it would likely irk them that it contradicts what they want it to mean.
Peace.
" a Balochi is either a person who speaks that language":So, if a Finnish linguist learns Balochi, he counts as a Balochi?"Defined by specific parameters of belief": Which means that people who do not share those beliefs are outside the fold. Again, identity rests on the existence of "otherness."Spencer seems to like a certain degree of fuzziness in his definition.Replies: @Talha
Not necessarily - the more coherent identities can indeed be well defined. For instance, a Balochi is either a person who speaks that language or descends from one of the tribes that compose the Balochi people. A Muslim or a Catholic is also defined by specific parameters of belief. These are all irrespective of any definitions (or even existence) of out-groups.
White (as defined by people like Spencer) lacks coherence. It could possibly have a more solid definition and more coherence, but it would likely irk them that it contradicts what they want it to mean.
Peace.Replies: @syonredux
Imagine a world where only the Balochi people exist; pretty sure that divisions within the Balochi people would suddenly become salient.
” a Balochi is either a person who speaks that language”:So, if a Finnish linguist learns Balochi, he counts as a Balochi?
“Defined by specific parameters of belief”: Which means that people who do not share those beliefs are outside the fold. Again, identity rests on the existence of “otherness.”
Spencer seems to like a certain degree of fuzziness in his definition.
I guess when you present the hypothetical example and I imagine a Venn diagram where all humans are Balochi and thus Human = Balochi - the word 'Balochi' loses much of its meaning. I guess this is essentially the problem I have when many of these WN's seem to think creating a White ethno-state will solve all their issues; as you stated, divisions within White people would suddenly become salient - like they have constantly been in play in Europe - without any immigration. Immigration just adds another issue to worry about - and maybe that's all they want, they just want to have one less headache to worry about - so I can at least empathize with that.
On the Balochi note, I made a mistake, descent from one of the tribes is the essential ingredient. Even if you happen to be a Balochi in London and can't speak a word of Balochi, you are still Balochi.
Peace.Replies: @Anonymous
you’re getting caught up in the stupid categories. the question is: will any non-anglo people maintain liberal democracy? all other european groups besides the english have a spotty and short record in comparison. and frankly, even the anglo experience is a few centuries old.
" a Balochi is either a person who speaks that language":So, if a Finnish linguist learns Balochi, he counts as a Balochi?"Defined by specific parameters of belief": Which means that people who do not share those beliefs are outside the fold. Again, identity rests on the existence of "otherness."Spencer seems to like a certain degree of fuzziness in his definition.Replies: @Talha
Hey syonredux,
I guess when you present the hypothetical example and I imagine a Venn diagram where all humans are Balochi and thus Human = Balochi – the word ‘Balochi’ loses much of its meaning. I guess this is essentially the problem I have when many of these WN’s seem to think creating a White ethno-state will solve all their issues; as you stated, divisions within White people would suddenly become salient – like they have constantly been in play in Europe – without any immigration. Immigration just adds another issue to worry about – and maybe that’s all they want, they just want to have one less headache to worry about – so I can at least empathize with that.
On the Balochi note, I made a mistake, descent from one of the tribes is the essential ingredient. Even if you happen to be a Balochi in London and can’t speak a word of Balochi, you are still Balochi.
Peace.
So called white nationalism can only work in the Anglo new world, and even then, probably just the US and Canada as Aussies aren't Euromutts yet and see southerners as 'wogs'.
There will never be unity based on some imagined construct of 'whiteness' in Europe, and these American WNs are seriously deluding themselves if they think otherwise.
Hell, not even Pan-Slavicism could work in Europe, yet they think they can force some new world concept on dozens of ethnic groups with differing languages cultures histories etc, all of which are too proud to give up their heritage in favour of someone else's.Replies: @John Massey, @Tobus
Further point: The PC Left sees the world in essentially the same terms as WNs. WNs divide the world between "White people" and non-Whites. To the PC Left, everything is a struggle between People of Color (POC) and Whites.It's all very Manichean.Replies: @iffen
It’s all very Manichean.
Doesn’t this appeal to human nature ? Isn’t playing to this one of the easiest ways to “win”?
I think it’s percentages.
Say for the sake of argument liberal democracy needs
– minimum average IQ
– minimum amount of some x factor
and assume x exists at some low percentage everywhere (say 5%) but the hajnal line thing selected for it specifically to some degree (say 20%)
then the liberal democracy capable population would be a varying percentage among all populations – which fits my experience.
You’d need a tipping point percentage though and the earliest populations to reach that tipping point would wobble a lot by definition (because they’d be just at the tipping point).
So if you knew what the required genes were I think you could probably populate an island with people selected from everywhere as long as they were tested to have all the required genes and it might work out.
I guess when you present the hypothetical example and I imagine a Venn diagram where all humans are Balochi and thus Human = Balochi - the word 'Balochi' loses much of its meaning. I guess this is essentially the problem I have when many of these WN's seem to think creating a White ethno-state will solve all their issues; as you stated, divisions within White people would suddenly become salient - like they have constantly been in play in Europe - without any immigration. Immigration just adds another issue to worry about - and maybe that's all they want, they just want to have one less headache to worry about - so I can at least empathize with that.
On the Balochi note, I made a mistake, descent from one of the tribes is the essential ingredient. Even if you happen to be a Balochi in London and can't speak a word of Balochi, you are still Balochi.
Peace.Replies: @Anonymous
That’s a good observation that’s never mentioned.
So called white nationalism can only work in the Anglo new world, and even then, probably just the US and Canada as Aussies aren’t Euromutts yet and see southerners as ‘wogs’.
There will never be unity based on some imagined construct of ‘whiteness’ in Europe, and these American WNs are seriously deluding themselves if they think otherwise.
Hell, not even Pan-Slavicism could work in Europe, yet they think they can force some new world concept on dozens of ethnic groups with differing languages cultures histories etc, all of which are too proud to give up their heritage in favour of someone else’s.
Speak for yourself. And the outdated derogatory slang term 'wog' was applied to Arabs and Turks, not to southern Europeans.Replies: @Anonymous, @Tobus, @Bill M, @dfordoom
Say for the sake of argument liberal democracy needs
- minimum average IQ
- minimum amount of some x factor
and assume x exists at some low percentage everywhere (say 5%) but the hajnal line thing selected for it specifically to some degree (say 20%)
then the liberal democracy capable population would be a varying percentage among all populations - which fits my experience.
You'd need a tipping point percentage though and the earliest populations to reach that tipping point would wobble a lot by definition (because they'd be just at the tipping point).
So if you knew what the required genes were I think you could probably populate an island with people selected from everywhere as long as they were tested to have all the required genes and it might work out.Replies: @iffen
Democracy genes, I like it!
Does this mean that every Arab Spring or Tiananmen Square reduces the chances for democracy in that population?
This seems as good a place as any to ask, as the commenters here seem generally well.read in related topics; can anyone recommend a decent book/articles on Hindu nationalism ? (Analytical rather than narrative.)
if the idea is correct then yes – as would lowering the average IQ
[you are very good at packing in a huge # of factual inaccuracies into one comment; my question is are you trying, or this is an innate aptitude? -Razib]
The English were able to “solve” the elite overproduction problem by having some of their elite prey elsewhere in places like Ireland, and by exporting population to huge, newly discovered continental territories. Who knows if they would have maintained liberal democracy, or even had it in the first place, without this outlet. They might not have had the luxury, especially since they were competing with the Continental states.
That was my impression. In fact, I thought he was a ski bum from Whitefish (am I wrong about that?). When he tried to get me to give him my blog I asked him “for what?” and he seemed to think people just traded their work as some sort of courtesy. That was the only and last contact I had with him, and I came away from it thinking he lives in an entirely different world from my own. You know, the world where you have to worry about how you’re going to pay your bills and thereby stay under a roof and out of jail.
The English were able to “solve” the elite overproduction problem
This seems reasonable on its face. They got rid of many of the less desirables as well.
We should compare to Spain as to numbers. Spain exported many from the upper classes and hardly any of their proles and they didn’t do all that well with early adoption of liberal democracy. So if we are suggesting changed % of classes as a major factor we need some comparisons and quantifying.
So called white nationalism can only work in the Anglo new world, and even then, probably just the US and Canada as Aussies aren't Euromutts yet and see southerners as 'wogs'.
There will never be unity based on some imagined construct of 'whiteness' in Europe, and these American WNs are seriously deluding themselves if they think otherwise.
Hell, not even Pan-Slavicism could work in Europe, yet they think they can force some new world concept on dozens of ethnic groups with differing languages cultures histories etc, all of which are too proud to give up their heritage in favour of someone else's.Replies: @John Massey, @Tobus
“Aussies aren’t Euromutts yet and see southerners as ‘wogs’.”
Speak for yourself. And the outdated derogatory slang term ‘wog’ was applied to Arabs and Turks, not to southern Europeans.
First, formal definition from Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wog#Use_in_Australian_EnglishAnd Wiktionary
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/wog#NounThen informal 'street definition' from urbandictionary
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wogYou were saying?Replies: @John Massey
No, it definitely applied to southern Europeans, Italians and Greeks especially... (see Acropolis Now for it's use in popular culture).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45BSeG9y99c
The term 'wog' may have been used by an earlier generation, during the war years, to describe Arabs and Turks. I wasn't alive then so I don't know.Replies: @John Massey
Speak for yourself. And the outdated derogatory slang term 'wog' was applied to Arabs and Turks, not to southern Europeans.Replies: @Anonymous, @Tobus, @Bill M, @dfordoom
Haha. Don’t know where you’re getting your information from but you couldn’t be more wrong.
First, formal definition from Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wog#Use_in_Australian_English
And Wiktionary
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/wog#Noun
Then informal ‘street definition’ from urbandictionary
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wog
You were saying?
The term "wog" originated with Australian troops fighting in the First and Second World Wars, where they encountered Turks and Arabs, and referred strictly to Near or Middle Eatern people. A variety of other terms were used to refer to other groups, e.g. Lebanese were 'Lebs', Egyptians were 'Gippos', Spaniards were 'Dagos' (orig. British and a contraction of Diego) and Italians were 'Eyeties' or 'Dings'.
Australia outside of Sydney and Melbourne does exist, you know. So far this Century, it would have been better off if it had.Replies: @dfordoom
Speak for yourself. And the outdated derogatory slang term 'wog' was applied to Arabs and Turks, not to southern Europeans.Replies: @Anonymous, @Tobus, @Bill M, @dfordoom
the outdated derogatory slang term ‘wog’ was applied to Arabs and Turks, not to southern Europeans
No, it definitely applied to southern Europeans, Italians and Greeks especially… (see Acropolis Now for it’s use in popular culture).
Speak for yourself. And the outdated derogatory slang term 'wog' was applied to Arabs and Turks, not to southern Europeans.Replies: @Anonymous, @Tobus, @Bill M, @dfordoom
Australia didn’t have significant non-British Isles immigration until quite recently, with Southern European immigration following WWII. The derogatory term “wog” in Australia was used to refer to Southern Europeans and other immigrant groups such as Croatians, Serbs, and Lebanese. There wasn’t much non-Lebanese Arab and Turkish immigration to Australia.
So called white nationalism can only work in the Anglo new world, and even then, probably just the US and Canada as Aussies aren't Euromutts yet and see southerners as 'wogs'.
There will never be unity based on some imagined construct of 'whiteness' in Europe, and these American WNs are seriously deluding themselves if they think otherwise.
Hell, not even Pan-Slavicism could work in Europe, yet they think they can force some new world concept on dozens of ethnic groups with differing languages cultures histories etc, all of which are too proud to give up their heritage in favour of someone else's.Replies: @John Massey, @Tobus
Aussies aren’t Euromutts yet and see southerners as ‘wogs’.
“Wog” is very outdated in Australia, and pretty much reclaimed as a positive term now. Southern European surnames are really commonplace and I think, given the subsequent racist fads against Lebanese, Vietnamese and then Muslims etc. since “anti-wog” was in vogue, that most Aussies today would consider Italians and Greeks as “white” in a national identity.
Worth also noting that Australia had a “White Australia” policy for decades, and South Africa had apartheid, so I don’t think white nationalism is limited to the US/Canada.
Speak for yourself. And the outdated derogatory slang term 'wog' was applied to Arabs and Turks, not to southern Europeans.Replies: @Anonymous, @Tobus, @Bill M, @dfordoom
No, as an Australian who was around in the 60s I can tell you it was used to describe southern Europeans. And Italian and Greek migrants used it to describe themselves. Italian and Greek migrants were not disliked – it was used mostly as a purely descriptive term, sometimes affectionately although on occasions in a derogatory manner. We also called English migrants Poms although that term was becoming much less common.
The term ‘wog’ may have been used by an earlier generation, during the war years, to describe Arabs and Turks. I wasn’t alive then so I don’t know.
The fact that it is becoming less common further confirms what I have thought for a while now - far from becoming a 'successful multiracial society', after the post-war rush of 'reffos' had subsided, Australia has been becoming increasingly Anglo with time. If you don't believe that, check the current immigration figures.
I wasn't around during the war years either, but picked up the terminology from the preceding generation, which was. Once when working on a road construction gang, I achieved the proud distinction of being abused as a "ding bastard" by a passing motorist, to the great amusement of my migrant Italian workmates (I'm not Italian, obviously, but could pass for a southern Italian, especially after prolonged sun exposure).Replies: @Bill M
First, formal definition from Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wog#Use_in_Australian_EnglishAnd Wiktionary
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/wog#NounThen informal 'street definition' from urbandictionary
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wogYou were saying?Replies: @John Massey
Note the careful wording in Wikipedia: “The slur became widely diffused…”.
The term “wog” originated with Australian troops fighting in the First and Second World Wars, where they encountered Turks and Arabs, and referred strictly to Near or Middle Eatern people. A variety of other terms were used to refer to other groups, e.g. Lebanese were ‘Lebs’, Egyptians were ‘Gippos’, Spaniards were ‘Dagos’ (orig. British and a contraction of Diego) and Italians were ‘Eyeties’ or ‘Dings’.
Australia outside of Sydney and Melbourne does exist, you know. So far this Century, it would have been better off if it had.
When I was younger I noticed quite a few differences between Sydney and Melbourne slang as well. Melbournites seemed to be remarkably fond of rhyming slang.
I was born in Sydney. I wouldn't touch the place with a barge-pole these days.
The term 'wog' may have been used by an earlier generation, during the war years, to describe Arabs and Turks. I wasn't alive then so I don't know.Replies: @John Massey
I still call the English ‘Poms’ and always will. Because they deserve it.
The fact that it is becoming less common further confirms what I have thought for a while now – far from becoming a ‘successful multiracial society’, after the post-war rush of ‘reffos’ had subsided, Australia has been becoming increasingly Anglo with time. If you don’t believe that, check the current immigration figures.
I wasn’t around during the war years either, but picked up the terminology from the preceding generation, which was. Once when working on a road construction gang, I achieved the proud distinction of being abused as a “ding bastard” by a passing motorist, to the great amusement of my migrant Italian workmates (I’m not Italian, obviously, but could pass for a southern Italian, especially after prolonged sun exposure).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9DZvUNw95I
The term "wog" originated with Australian troops fighting in the First and Second World Wars, where they encountered Turks and Arabs, and referred strictly to Near or Middle Eatern people. A variety of other terms were used to refer to other groups, e.g. Lebanese were 'Lebs', Egyptians were 'Gippos', Spaniards were 'Dagos' (orig. British and a contraction of Diego) and Italians were 'Eyeties' or 'Dings'.
Australia outside of Sydney and Melbourne does exist, you know. So far this Century, it would have been better off if it had.Replies: @dfordoom
Quite true. My significant other is from Queensland. Queenslanders don’t exactly have their own dialect but there are quite a few differences in slang terms.
When I was younger I noticed quite a few differences between Sydney and Melbourne slang as well. Melbournites seemed to be remarkably fond of rhyming slang.
I was born in Sydney. I wouldn’t touch the place with a barge-pole these days.
If any of you doubt what I am saying about the original use of the term “wog” in Australian slang, try reading the book by the prolific Australian author Ion L. ‘Jack’ Idriess titled “Horrie the Wog Dog.”
Idriess was a spotter for the half-Chinese Australian sniper Billy Sing at Gallipoli, and wrote largely non-fiction based on his own personal experiences, so you can take him as authoritative.
Anyone who has heard of neither Idriess nor Sing would have a bit of a nerve referring to himself as Australian.
They couldn't find a half-Asian actor, eh? The portrayal of his father John Sing - a full blooded Chinese immigrant - with a completely European-looking actor was a nice touch. I guess kids call this "white-washing."Prior to the more recent publicity, how many Australians knew of Sing or that he was half-Chinese? He seemed to have died in obscurity.Replies: @John Massey
The fact that it is becoming less common further confirms what I have thought for a while now - far from becoming a 'successful multiracial society', after the post-war rush of 'reffos' had subsided, Australia has been becoming increasingly Anglo with time. If you don't believe that, check the current immigration figures.
I wasn't around during the war years either, but picked up the terminology from the preceding generation, which was. Once when working on a road construction gang, I achieved the proud distinction of being abused as a "ding bastard" by a passing motorist, to the great amusement of my migrant Italian workmates (I'm not Italian, obviously, but could pass for a southern Italian, especially after prolonged sun exposure).Replies: @Bill M
You may not be a wog, but you look like one:
It serves their purpose.
Spencer and the others like him have no mass following. They are continually in a scrum for devotees and dollars.
Why are you so invested with this one guy.
I have spent a fair amount of time here at Unz challenging 88s and racists in the comment sections. I don't remember seeing you show up with many comments except occasionally where Talha has pushed back against bad information on Muslims.
You don't seem to be able to make distinctions. You make everything into either/or. Just like you kept insisting that I was a WN when I kept telling you that I was not.Replies: @Twinkie
I am not. I commented on two threads about him, which is a miniscule fraction of the comments I have written on Unz.
I don’t appreciate the attempt or the implication to make it sound like I am obsessed with this character, which is a too clever-by-half way of ad hominem.
I don’t wish to make things personal here, but you seem to suffer from reading comprehension (of your own writing, to boot).
Let me clarify. I do not know who you are. I do not know whether you are or are not a white nationalist. The only thing I can infer is to draw a conclusion of what you do or do not believe based on your comments.
Earlier I wrote a short critique of Spencer’s ideas and plans, which include bloody and violent ethnic cleansing. You responded by writing the following:
By your own words, you are implying that pursuing a white ethnostate and violent ethnic cleaning of non-whites is “rational for whites.”
What you wrote above would make sense if Spencer’s ideology were “garden variety” pro-white advocacy. But it’s not. It very clearly includes infantile fantasies of white (his, in particular) will to power and eradication of the “mud” people. And you think that’s “rational for white” in a world of identity politics. I don’t know what to tell you, except to say that it sounds a lot like a roundabout endorsement of Spencer’s ideas if not him as a person or a leader.
As to the personal stuff, I don’t know whether you are of Asian descent, a devout Catholic, or a part-time gentleman farmer among hillbillies. Are you wound up about Spencer because he supposedly has a predilection for Asian women? Because the celebrity slut that showed up at the gathering was Asian? The only item that I am certain of is that you seem to be very knowledgeable of military history.
Why are you so invested with this one guy.
There are other WNs that spout similar views. Have you never read Stormfront? You are giving this one individual more attention than the MSM. He is, in fact, garden variety on the extreme right.
In my comments on identity politics, I committed the error that I attributed to you and it is what Razib rapped my knuckles about. In my comments I did not carefully acknowledge and delineate the continuum of identity politics that I see. I think that in this election cycle, the appeal of Clinton to identity politics crossed a barrier that was previously in place. Bernie recently tried to pull the Democrats back, but I didn’t see any other politicians rushing to endorse his position. In fact, if the pundits and writers on the liberal left are to be believed and if the thinking expressed by them prevails then the Democrats are going to double down.
And you think that’s “rational for white” in a world of identity politics.
If, and I have put if in bold for a reason, American politics degenerates into open, intractable and exclusive race based politics then it is rational for a white person to support the white group.
If, in a dystopian future, race war comes, it would be rational for a white person to support the white group.
Those events have not yet occurred and I would pray that they didn't. It just seems to me that this election cycle (the Clinton campaign) has put us at the fork and it is conceivable that we could go in the wrong direction.
You are alarmed by the Spencer types; I am not. I am alarmed by the mild mannered professorial types.Replies: @Twinkie
Idriess was a spotter for the half-Chinese Australian sniper Billy Sing at Gallipoli, and wrote largely non-fiction based on his own personal experiences, so you can take him as authoritative.
Anyone who has heard of neither Idriess nor Sing would have a bit of a nerve referring to himself as Australian.Replies: @Twinkie
https://youtu.be/d3oVr0CKU4o
They couldn’t find a half-Asian actor, eh? The portrayal of his father John Sing – a full blooded Chinese immigrant – with a completely European-looking actor was a nice touch. I guess kids call this “white-washing.”
Prior to the more recent publicity, how many Australians knew of Sing or that he was half-Chinese? He seemed to have died in obscurity.
I was first pleased when I heard that a TV series about him was being planned, but then outraged when they cast Anglo-Australian actors in the parts of Billy and his father. There was some criticism voiced by the Australian Chinese community, but the producers just fobbed it off with some bullshit about how they didn't have a big enough budget to go looking for actors of more authentic appearance. Disgusted, I made a point of not watching the series. It seems to have made little impression - I certainly didn't see any critical acclaim of it, but then I didn't go looking.
Just colour me appalled by the whole embarrassing mess.Replies: @Talha
I don't appreciate the attempt or the implication to make it sound like I am obsessed with this character, which is a too clever-by-half way of ad hominem.I don't wish to make things personal here, but you seem to suffer from reading comprehension (of your own writing, to boot).
Let me clarify. I do not know who you are. I do not know whether you are or are not a white nationalist. The only thing I can infer is to draw a conclusion of what you do or do not believe based on your comments.
Earlier I wrote a short critique of Spencer's ideas and plans, which include bloody and violent ethnic cleansing. You responded by writing the following:By your own words, you are implying that pursuing a white ethnostate and violent ethnic cleaning of non-whites is "rational for whites."
What you wrote above would make sense if Spencer's ideology were "garden variety" pro-white advocacy. But it's not. It very clearly includes infantile fantasies of white (his, in particular) will to power and eradication of the "mud" people. And you think that's "rational for white" in a world of identity politics. I don't know what to tell you, except to say that it sounds a lot like a roundabout endorsement of Spencer's ideas if not him as a person or a leader.Replies: @iffen
Well, I am fairly confident in my reading comprehension, but I do acknowledge deficiencies in my writing. As an excuse for that I think that taking 40 years off did a lot of damage.
As to the personal stuff, I don’t know whether you are of Asian descent, a devout Catholic, or a part-time gentleman farmer among hillbillies. Are you wound up about Spencer because he supposedly has a predilection for Asian women? Because the celebrity slut that showed up at the gathering was Asian? The only item that I am certain of is that you seem to be very knowledgeable of military history.
Why are you so invested with this one guy.
There are other WNs that spout similar views. Have you never read Stormfront? You are giving this one individual more attention than the MSM. He is, in fact, garden variety on the extreme right.
In my comments on identity politics, I committed the error that I attributed to you and it is what Razib rapped my knuckles about. In my comments I did not carefully acknowledge and delineate the continuum of identity politics that I see. I think that in this election cycle, the appeal of Clinton to identity politics crossed a barrier that was previously in place. Bernie recently tried to pull the Democrats back, but I didn’t see any other politicians rushing to endorse his position. In fact, if the pundits and writers on the liberal left are to be believed and if the thinking expressed by them prevails then the Democrats are going to double down.
And you think that’s “rational for white” in a world of identity politics.
If, and I have put if in bold for a reason, American politics degenerates into open, intractable and exclusive race based politics then it is rational for a white person to support the white group.
If, in a dystopian future, race war comes, it would be rational for a white person to support the white group.
Those events have not yet occurred and I would pray that they didn’t. It just seems to me that this election cycle (the Clinton campaign) has put us at the fork and it is conceivable that we could go in the wrong direction.
You are alarmed by the Spencer types; I am not. I am alarmed by the mild mannered professorial types.
In any case, we can see just how ineffective the "war on white men" strategy was for Clinton - Trump gained 2-3 percentage points over Romney among blacks, Hispanics, and Asians.I hope so. And when our enemies are making a mistake, we ought to help them by "building a golden bridge" as the ancient saying goes.You are being slippery here and not too cleverly either. You didn't just write "If" - you qualified that if with a future likely to arrive. Your exact words were "If our country is devolving into strict racial and ethnic identity politics, with very little possibility of returning to our propositional ideal, and I am fearful that it is..." [boldface mine.]Unless you are completely unintelligent or unhinged, you ought to acknowledge that there is a rather large gulf between "ethnic identity politics" and "race war."
The fact that you use the highly unlikely prospect of the latter to endorse Richard Spencer's vision of a white ethnostate and violent ethnic cleansing in a roundabout way all the while protesting "I am not a white nationalist" tells me that there is smoke here somewhere. It's been my experience that people who sound the alarm bells about a race war in the U.S. most vociferously are usually those who want it to happen.
Even Spencer's mentor Jared Taylor has renounced explicitly violence as a means to achieve what he seeks. In fact, he is rather disparaging of the "Aryan race warrior" types in public (though Taylor has a coy habit of associating with characters whose principles seem to cross his on this score).Replies: @iffen, @iffen, @Johann Ricke
That was actually my point. There are lots of “self-hating” White SJWs out there. “Self-Hating” pro-White POC, in contrast, are quite thin on the ground.
If you imagine a default environment where people are surrounded by close kin then there’d be no reason to select for traits that focused on cooperation between non kin.
If you imagine an urban environment then unless close kin marriage was maintained culturally people would no longer be surrounded by close kin and you might imagine traits that enhanced cooperation among non kin might be selected for.
If that was one component in democracy then you’d see first see democratic tendencies in the towns and cities – initially just for their own town or city – and a permanent tension between urban and rural unless a tipping point percentage was reached.
Hence why i think the necessary traits for democracy will likely exist in some proportion among urbanized populations everywhere unless close kin marriages are culturally maintained in the cities also – and if the city was massacred then those traits would disappear for as long as it took for the city to fill up again and those traits to be selected for again.
(if correct the hajnal line thing would be an enforced rural version of the effect of urbanisation)
Why couldn't it just be an add on to kin cooperation. IOW some people can do "virtual kin" and cooperate within the rules and the system.Replies: @notanon
might imagine traits that enhanced cooperation among non kin might be selected for.
Why couldn’t it just be an add on to kin cooperation. IOW some people can do “virtual kin” and cooperate within the rules and the system.
(it's why i think IQ may be partly an "urban" thing if it involves the ability to see the benefits of cooperation that weren't immediately obvious)
As to the personal stuff, I don’t know whether you are of Asian descent, a devout Catholic, or a part-time gentleman farmer among hillbillies. Are you wound up about Spencer because he supposedly has a predilection for Asian women? Because the celebrity slut that showed up at the gathering was Asian? The only item that I am certain of is that you seem to be very knowledgeable of military history.
Why are you so invested with this one guy.
There are other WNs that spout similar views. Have you never read Stormfront? You are giving this one individual more attention than the MSM. He is, in fact, garden variety on the extreme right.
In my comments on identity politics, I committed the error that I attributed to you and it is what Razib rapped my knuckles about. In my comments I did not carefully acknowledge and delineate the continuum of identity politics that I see. I think that in this election cycle, the appeal of Clinton to identity politics crossed a barrier that was previously in place. Bernie recently tried to pull the Democrats back, but I didn’t see any other politicians rushing to endorse his position. In fact, if the pundits and writers on the liberal left are to be believed and if the thinking expressed by them prevails then the Democrats are going to double down.
And you think that’s “rational for white” in a world of identity politics.
If, and I have put if in bold for a reason, American politics degenerates into open, intractable and exclusive race based politics then it is rational for a white person to support the white group.
If, in a dystopian future, race war comes, it would be rational for a white person to support the white group.
Those events have not yet occurred and I would pray that they didn't. It just seems to me that this election cycle (the Clinton campaign) has put us at the fork and it is conceivable that we could go in the wrong direction.
You are alarmed by the Spencer types; I am not. I am alarmed by the mild mannered professorial types.Replies: @Twinkie
Now you are getting just snippy and petty. But I will indulge you.
Yes. Northeast Asian, to be specific.
I suppose. But I am more obedient than devout.
I would not characterize myself as any kind of a farmer. I do own some desolate land and a farm house on it, which is my little piece of heaven on earth.
No. That part of his history strikes me (very midly) as amusing. But the tone of this question strikes me as both presumptious and ill-intended. I am not one of those Internet Asian Guys ™ who get upset at Asian women dating white men. For one thing, I am an assimilationist, so I encourage Asians – males and females – to marry whites (though obviously what matters first is love). For another, it would be extremely hypocratical and silly given that I married a woman the unhinged commenter Jefferson called “a Nordic queen.”
I don’t know who she is and do not care. I just feel sad for her parents.
Yes. I taught military history early in my life.
Yes, some years ago. To my knowledge there is no one associated with that site who is getting front page treatment in the newspapers today (though I read that the son of the founder of that site is now a dreadlocked hip-hop artist living with a black woman).
I am pretty sure that Richard Spencer is getting a lot of attention in the mainstream media, including the pages of The Washington Post. I am also sure that such treatment is inordinately greater attention than what few sentences *I* – an anonymous commenter on a blog – wrote.
I disagree. But of course this depends on what “the extreme right” is. Many people would categorize me as an “extreme rightist.”
I’ll take that as a “I am sorry.”
You seemed not to have paid attention to politics much in the past. There was no “barrier” that was crossed. Racialized political attacks and methods of influence have been with us for a very long time. Done well, it’s effective (e.g. https://youtu.be/Io9KMSSEZ0Y). Done poorly, it backfires (e.g. https://youtu.be/2-E2IhOc58kf).
In any case, we can see just how ineffective the “war on white men” strategy was for Clinton – Trump gained 2-3 percentage points over Romney among blacks, Hispanics, and Asians.
I hope so. And when our enemies are making a mistake, we ought to help them by “building a golden bridge” as the ancient saying goes.
You are being slippery here and not too cleverly either. You didn’t just write “If” – you qualified that if with a future likely to arrive. Your exact words were “If our country is devolving into strict racial and ethnic identity politics, with very little possibility of returning to our propositional ideal, and I am fearful that it is…” [boldface mine.]
Unless you are completely unintelligent or unhinged, you ought to acknowledge that there is a rather large gulf between “ethnic identity politics” and “race war.”
The fact that you use the highly unlikely prospect of the latter to endorse Richard Spencer’s vision of a white ethnostate and violent ethnic cleansing in a roundabout way all the while protesting “I am not a white nationalist” tells me that there is smoke here somewhere. It’s been my experience that people who sound the alarm bells about a race war in the U.S. most vociferously are usually those who want it to happen.
Even Spencer’s mentor Jared Taylor has renounced explicitly violence as a means to achieve what he seeks. In fact, he is rather disparaging of the “Aryan race warrior” types in public (though Taylor has a coy habit of associating with characters whose principles seem to cross his on this score).
But the tone of this question strikes me as both presumptious and ill-intended.
Just dabbling in giving back something in the tone that I see in some of your comments about and toward me.
I am an assimilationist, so I encourage Asians – males and females – to marry whites
Interesting, I see a lot of diversity in marriages these days, but I don’t see many public advocates for the intentional merging of the races. I noticed that you specified whites. Is this intentional? What about other races?
I’ll take that as a “I am sorry.”
No, it is not any sort of apology for anything that I have written, just an acknowledgement that the clarity of my writing is sub-par. Apology for style, not substance.
the appeal of Clinton to identity politics crossed a barrier that was previously in place.
You seemed not to have paid attention to politics much in the past.
This would be you, not me. We can leave this aside as to whether this election was the beginning of something different or just more of the same. I can agree to disagree.
when our enemies are making a mistake
Our. Much progress has been made.
we ought to help them by “building a golden bridge” as the ancient saying goes.
Yes. Let’s hope the Democrats select the Black Muslim to be DNC chair.
A caveat here would be that this would continue to drive the racial and ethnic divide. Taken to the extreme many, many years into the future it would be disaster. I think it is worth the short term risk in order to cause the collapse of the Democratic Party.
you ought to acknowledge that there is a rather large gulf between “ethnic identity politics” and “race war.”
This was the main point of my last comment. I say extremely large gulf. Whether the problem is my writing or your comprehension, or some combination, I can’t say. :)
who sound the alarm bells about a race war in the U.S.
I am not worried about race war at this point in time. I am worried about the increasingly open appeal to race and identity without any pretense of homage to a “higher” common political identity in what passes for normal politics. I also take note of those on the right who are trying to drum up support for the creation of a "white" identity, with or without the Nazi trimmings.
though Taylor has a coy habit of associating with characters
tells me that there is smoke here somewhere.Replies: @Twinkie
A party obsessed with race won’t have much luck reaching out to non-elite whites.
Heather Mac Donald
November 27, 2016
http://www.city-journal.org/html/democrats-not-trump-racialize-our-politics-14871.html
Why couldn't it just be an add on to kin cooperation. IOW some people can do "virtual kin" and cooperate within the rules and the system.Replies: @notanon
sure – that would be a trait that enhanced cooperation among non-kin
(it’s why i think IQ may be partly an “urban” thing if it involves the ability to see the benefits of cooperation that weren’t immediately obvious)
In any case, we can see just how ineffective the "war on white men" strategy was for Clinton - Trump gained 2-3 percentage points over Romney among blacks, Hispanics, and Asians.I hope so. And when our enemies are making a mistake, we ought to help them by "building a golden bridge" as the ancient saying goes.You are being slippery here and not too cleverly either. You didn't just write "If" - you qualified that if with a future likely to arrive. Your exact words were "If our country is devolving into strict racial and ethnic identity politics, with very little possibility of returning to our propositional ideal, and I am fearful that it is..." [boldface mine.]Unless you are completely unintelligent or unhinged, you ought to acknowledge that there is a rather large gulf between "ethnic identity politics" and "race war."
The fact that you use the highly unlikely prospect of the latter to endorse Richard Spencer's vision of a white ethnostate and violent ethnic cleansing in a roundabout way all the while protesting "I am not a white nationalist" tells me that there is smoke here somewhere. It's been my experience that people who sound the alarm bells about a race war in the U.S. most vociferously are usually those who want it to happen.
Even Spencer's mentor Jared Taylor has renounced explicitly violence as a means to achieve what he seeks. In fact, he is rather disparaging of the "Aryan race warrior" types in public (though Taylor has a coy habit of associating with characters whose principles seem to cross his on this score).Replies: @iffen, @iffen, @Johann Ricke
Thanks for the indulgence. 🙂
But the tone of this question strikes me as both presumptious and ill-intended.
Just dabbling in giving back something in the tone that I see in some of your comments about and toward me.
I am an assimilationist, so I encourage Asians – males and females – to marry whites
Interesting, I see a lot of diversity in marriages these days, but I don’t see many public advocates for the intentional merging of the races. I noticed that you specified whites. Is this intentional? What about other races?
I’ll take that as a “I am sorry.”
No, it is not any sort of apology for anything that I have written, just an acknowledgement that the clarity of my writing is sub-par. Apology for style, not substance.
the appeal of Clinton to identity politics crossed a barrier that was previously in place.
You seemed not to have paid attention to politics much in the past.
This would be you, not me. We can leave this aside as to whether this election was the beginning of something different or just more of the same. I can agree to disagree.
when our enemies are making a mistake
Our. Much progress has been made.
we ought to help them by “building a golden bridge” as the ancient saying goes.
Yes. Let’s hope the Democrats select the Black Muslim to be DNC chair.
A caveat here would be that this would continue to drive the racial and ethnic divide. Taken to the extreme many, many years into the future it would be disaster. I think it is worth the short term risk in order to cause the collapse of the Democratic Party.
you ought to acknowledge that there is a rather large gulf between “ethnic identity politics” and “race war.”
This was the main point of my last comment. I say extremely large gulf. Whether the problem is my writing or your comprehension, or some combination, I can’t say. 🙂
who sound the alarm bells about a race war in the U.S.
I am not worried about race war at this point in time. I am worried about the increasingly open appeal to race and identity without any pretense of homage to a “higher” common political identity in what passes for normal politics. I also take note of those on the right who are trying to drum up support for the creation of a “white” identity, with or without the Nazi trimmings.
though Taylor has a coy habit of associating with characters
tells me that there is smoke here somewhere.
In any case, we can see just how ineffective the "war on white men" strategy was for Clinton - Trump gained 2-3 percentage points over Romney among blacks, Hispanics, and Asians.I hope so. And when our enemies are making a mistake, we ought to help them by "building a golden bridge" as the ancient saying goes.You are being slippery here and not too cleverly either. You didn't just write "If" - you qualified that if with a future likely to arrive. Your exact words were "If our country is devolving into strict racial and ethnic identity politics, with very little possibility of returning to our propositional ideal, and I am fearful that it is..." [boldface mine.]Unless you are completely unintelligent or unhinged, you ought to acknowledge that there is a rather large gulf between "ethnic identity politics" and "race war."
The fact that you use the highly unlikely prospect of the latter to endorse Richard Spencer's vision of a white ethnostate and violent ethnic cleansing in a roundabout way all the while protesting "I am not a white nationalist" tells me that there is smoke here somewhere. It's been my experience that people who sound the alarm bells about a race war in the U.S. most vociferously are usually those who want it to happen.
Even Spencer's mentor Jared Taylor has renounced explicitly violence as a means to achieve what he seeks. In fact, he is rather disparaging of the "Aryan race warrior" types in public (though Taylor has a coy habit of associating with characters whose principles seem to cross his on this score).Replies: @iffen, @iffen, @Johann Ricke
Democrats, Not Trump, Racialize Our Politics
A party obsessed with race won’t have much luck reaching out to non-elite whites.
Heather Mac Donald
November 27, 2016
http://www.city-journal.org/html/democrats-not-trump-racialize-our-politics-14871.html
In any case, we can see just how ineffective the "war on white men" strategy was for Clinton - Trump gained 2-3 percentage points over Romney among blacks, Hispanics, and Asians.I hope so. And when our enemies are making a mistake, we ought to help them by "building a golden bridge" as the ancient saying goes.You are being slippery here and not too cleverly either. You didn't just write "If" - you qualified that if with a future likely to arrive. Your exact words were "If our country is devolving into strict racial and ethnic identity politics, with very little possibility of returning to our propositional ideal, and I am fearful that it is..." [boldface mine.]Unless you are completely unintelligent or unhinged, you ought to acknowledge that there is a rather large gulf between "ethnic identity politics" and "race war."
The fact that you use the highly unlikely prospect of the latter to endorse Richard Spencer's vision of a white ethnostate and violent ethnic cleansing in a roundabout way all the while protesting "I am not a white nationalist" tells me that there is smoke here somewhere. It's been my experience that people who sound the alarm bells about a race war in the U.S. most vociferously are usually those who want it to happen.
Even Spencer's mentor Jared Taylor has renounced explicitly violence as a means to achieve what he seeks. In fact, he is rather disparaging of the "Aryan race warrior" types in public (though Taylor has a coy habit of associating with characters whose principles seem to cross his on this score).Replies: @iffen, @iffen, @Johann Ricke
The white flight of Derek Black
Pity. There is a rather wide spectrum of lifestyles betwen that and being a front man for StormFront.Replies: @Talha
They couldn't find a half-Asian actor, eh? The portrayal of his father John Sing - a full blooded Chinese immigrant - with a completely European-looking actor was a nice touch. I guess kids call this "white-washing."Prior to the more recent publicity, how many Australians knew of Sing or that he was half-Chinese? He seemed to have died in obscurity.Replies: @John Massey
I have known about Billy Sing since I was a young teenager, because I loved Idriess’ writing and avidly devoured everything he ever published. But I would guess very few Australians knew of Sing or acknowledged him as any kind of Australian war hero. He was a small, skinny man with a notable East Asian cast to his appearance, and just didn’t fit the mythical image of the big bronzed Anzac. His efforts were recognised by the Australian military at the time, but he was soon forgotten after the war. And yes, he did die in impoverished obscurity.
I was first pleased when I heard that a TV series about him was being planned, but then outraged when they cast Anglo-Australian actors in the parts of Billy and his father. There was some criticism voiced by the Australian Chinese community, but the producers just fobbed it off with some bullshit about how they didn’t have a big enough budget to go looking for actors of more authentic appearance. Disgusted, I made a point of not watching the series. It seems to have made little impression – I certainly didn’t see any critical acclaim of it, but then I didn’t go looking.
Just colour me appalled by the whole embarrassing mess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4
Peace.Replies: @John Massey, @Twinkie
But the tone of this question strikes me as both presumptious and ill-intended.
Just dabbling in giving back something in the tone that I see in some of your comments about and toward me.
I am an assimilationist, so I encourage Asians – males and females – to marry whites
Interesting, I see a lot of diversity in marriages these days, but I don’t see many public advocates for the intentional merging of the races. I noticed that you specified whites. Is this intentional? What about other races?
I’ll take that as a “I am sorry.”
No, it is not any sort of apology for anything that I have written, just an acknowledgement that the clarity of my writing is sub-par. Apology for style, not substance.
the appeal of Clinton to identity politics crossed a barrier that was previously in place.
You seemed not to have paid attention to politics much in the past.
This would be you, not me. We can leave this aside as to whether this election was the beginning of something different or just more of the same. I can agree to disagree.
when our enemies are making a mistake
Our. Much progress has been made.
we ought to help them by “building a golden bridge” as the ancient saying goes.
Yes. Let’s hope the Democrats select the Black Muslim to be DNC chair.
A caveat here would be that this would continue to drive the racial and ethnic divide. Taken to the extreme many, many years into the future it would be disaster. I think it is worth the short term risk in order to cause the collapse of the Democratic Party.
you ought to acknowledge that there is a rather large gulf between “ethnic identity politics” and “race war.”
This was the main point of my last comment. I say extremely large gulf. Whether the problem is my writing or your comprehension, or some combination, I can’t say. :)
who sound the alarm bells about a race war in the U.S.
I am not worried about race war at this point in time. I am worried about the increasingly open appeal to race and identity without any pretense of homage to a “higher” common political identity in what passes for normal politics. I also take note of those on the right who are trying to drum up support for the creation of a "white" identity, with or without the Nazi trimmings.
though Taylor has a coy habit of associating with characters
tells me that there is smoke here somewhere.Replies: @Twinkie
I feel like the next response is going to be “That’s what you are, but what am I?” In other words, the conversation has degenerated into the personal, and that’s not productive. I am going to refrain from commenting on your comments. It would be nice if you reciprocated.
Okay, but I want to point out that this helps our enemies.
I don’t recall, but I read elsewhere that he now has a black girl friend, sports dreadlocks, and is making a go of it as a rap artist.
Pity. There is a rather wide spectrum of lifestyles betwen that and being a front man for StormFront.
Don't knock it man - the White boys can bring it!
One of the absolute best on-your-feet-free-styling I have ever heard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAu1WVtD1Xc
Peace.Replies: @Twinkie
when our enemies are making a mistake
Okay, but I want to point out that this helps our enemies.
I was first pleased when I heard that a TV series about him was being planned, but then outraged when they cast Anglo-Australian actors in the parts of Billy and his father. There was some criticism voiced by the Australian Chinese community, but the producers just fobbed it off with some bullshit about how they didn't have a big enough budget to go looking for actors of more authentic appearance. Disgusted, I made a point of not watching the series. It seems to have made little impression - I certainly didn't see any critical acclaim of it, but then I didn't go looking.
Just colour me appalled by the whole embarrassing mess.Replies: @Talha
Snipers often don’t fit the assumed archetype – the “White Death” stood at about the same height as my wife:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4
Peace.
A movie has just been released about the female Russian sniper Liudmyla Pavlychenko, one of the most successful snipers of all time. According to Wikipedia, the Red Army had 2,000 female snipers in WWII, of whom only 500 survived the war.Replies: @Twinkie, @Talha
And the following point is somewhat tangentially related to John Massey's earlier comment about Sing not fitting "the mythical image of the big bronzed Anzac," but it's something I found odd. For some reason, in the Anglosphere, there is this persistent stereotype that East Asians are coke bottle glasses-wearing nerds who can't shoot well... which is odd given that East Asians dominate several international shooting sports. For example, of the last four men to win Olympic gold medals in 10m air pistol, three were Chinese or Korean. The fourth, the latest winner, was Vietnamese (he beat out a Brazilian national, Felipe Wu, who won silver).
And that stereotype seems to be limited largely to Anglophone countries (minus Canada) while other Europeans don't appear to harbor it. I did some training with Norwegians at one point, and those guys assumed that I was the best shooter in my team, probably because of my ethnicity (the rest of the team was all white).Replies: @Talha
Pity. There is a rather wide spectrum of lifestyles betwen that and being a front man for StormFront.Replies: @Talha
Hey Twinkie,
Don’t knock it man – the White boys can bring it!
One of the absolute best on-your-feet-free-styling I have ever heard:
Peace.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4
Peace.Replies: @John Massey, @Twinkie
Billy Sing was 5’5″ – same height as my daughter.
A movie has just been released about the female Russian sniper Liudmyla Pavlychenko, one of the most successful snipers of all time. According to Wikipedia, the Red Army had 2,000 female snipers in WWII, of whom only 500 survived the war.
I might have mentioned before that I have trained a fairly large number of people in shooting. By far, women had the best attitudes. Most were initially apprehensive, but generally listened well, followed directions well, and were careful. It was easy to make most them decent shooters in short order (the hardest female to train was my own wife, who already had existing shooting experience before I taught her - so she had a lot of bad habits that were hard to break). Usually once females get over the flinching and anticipating recoil, they do well.
Most men were not so cooperative. Most had TV knowledge of gun handling (which is far worse than no knowledge) and refused to be taught until sufficiently embarrassed. However, the ones who were naturally gifted and/or learned well turned out to be superb shooters, far better than any female I trained.
Reminds me of the female snipers of the Chechen insurgency, dubbed the 'White Widows'.
Peace.
Don't knock it man - the White boys can bring it!
One of the absolute best on-your-feet-free-styling I have ever heard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAu1WVtD1Xc
Peace.Replies: @Twinkie
I have no opinion on Derek Black’s musical ability, whatever his genre. My “pity” comment was regarding what appears to me to be his swaying from one extreme to another. When people do a dramatic shift as he did, it tends not to put their former associations in disrepute. It would have been better if he had disavowed white supremacism and then continued on his life as more-or-less a normal person (perhaps get his Ph.D. in medieval history and become an academic) rather than someone who seems like a wannabe-black social justice warrior.
Can't argue with that logic. He's young, maybe it's just a phase - he might just calibrate into the normal spectrum in a few years after having lived on the flip side of the coin.
Peace.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4
Peace.Replies: @John Massey, @Twinkie
Actually the stereotype of a sniper is usually that of a somewhat physically dimunitive, unassuming person who blends in well – in other words, they don’t look like Arnold Schwarzenegger in “Commando” or any number of other freakishly large and muscular movie tough guys. A friend of mine is a retired SF sniper. He’s about 5′ 7″ on a good day and slightly built. He is a great shooter, to be sure, but his fieldcraft is truly amazing.
And the following point is somewhat tangentially related to John Massey’s earlier comment about Sing not fitting “the mythical image of the big bronzed Anzac,” but it’s something I found odd. For some reason, in the Anglosphere, there is this persistent stereotype that East Asians are coke bottle glasses-wearing nerds who can’t shoot well… which is odd given that East Asians dominate several international shooting sports. For example, of the last four men to win Olympic gold medals in 10m air pistol, three were Chinese or Korean. The fourth, the latest winner, was Vietnamese (he beat out a Brazilian national, Felipe Wu, who won silver).
And that stereotype seems to be limited largely to Anglophone countries (minus Canada) while other Europeans don’t appear to harbor it. I did some training with Norwegians at one point, and those guys assumed that I was the best shooter in my team, probably because of my ethnicity (the rest of the team was all white).
Peace.Replies: @Twinkie
A movie has just been released about the female Russian sniper Liudmyla Pavlychenko, one of the most successful snipers of all time. According to Wikipedia, the Red Army had 2,000 female snipers in WWII, of whom only 500 survived the war.Replies: @Twinkie, @Talha
I take the Red Army propaganda about its female combatants, snipers included, with a giant grain of salt. Communists had a thing for egalitarianism – including that of the sexes – and had a penchant for heroic pronouncements about the supposed battle performances of their female revolutionary comrades. Most of them was so much hot air.
I might have mentioned before that I have trained a fairly large number of people in shooting. By far, women had the best attitudes. Most were initially apprehensive, but generally listened well, followed directions well, and were careful. It was easy to make most them decent shooters in short order (the hardest female to train was my own wife, who already had existing shooting experience before I taught her – so she had a lot of bad habits that were hard to break). Usually once females get over the flinching and anticipating recoil, they do well.
Most men were not so cooperative. Most had TV knowledge of gun handling (which is far worse than no knowledge) and refused to be taught until sufficiently embarrassed. However, the ones who were naturally gifted and/or learned well turned out to be superb shooters, far better than any female I trained.
A movie has just been released about the female Russian sniper Liudmyla Pavlychenko, one of the most successful snipers of all time. According to Wikipedia, the Red Army had 2,000 female snipers in WWII, of whom only 500 survived the war.Replies: @Twinkie, @Talha
Hey JM,
Reminds me of the female snipers of the Chechen insurgency, dubbed the ‘White Widows’.
Peace.
Hey Twinkie,
Can’t argue with that logic. He’s young, maybe it’s just a phase – he might just calibrate into the normal spectrum in a few years after having lived on the flip side of the coin.
Peace.
And the following point is somewhat tangentially related to John Massey's earlier comment about Sing not fitting "the mythical image of the big bronzed Anzac," but it's something I found odd. For some reason, in the Anglosphere, there is this persistent stereotype that East Asians are coke bottle glasses-wearing nerds who can't shoot well... which is odd given that East Asians dominate several international shooting sports. For example, of the last four men to win Olympic gold medals in 10m air pistol, three were Chinese or Korean. The fourth, the latest winner, was Vietnamese (he beat out a Brazilian national, Felipe Wu, who won silver).
And that stereotype seems to be limited largely to Anglophone countries (minus Canada) while other Europeans don't appear to harbor it. I did some training with Norwegians at one point, and those guys assumed that I was the best shooter in my team, probably because of my ethnicity (the rest of the team was all white).Replies: @Talha
Hey Twinkie,
I say let them keep their delusions – they won’t know what hit ’em when it does. Anybody that has read into (even partially) the martial history of China and Japan should know these are foolish notions.
Possibly because it’s because Anglos are the ones that militarily dominated those East Asian countries – French were too busy in Africa, Spaniards were all over the place but not China and Japan. A whiff of ‘rule, rule Britannia’…
Peace.
Japan was not militarily dominated by anybody until the Pacific War, and even then only by the might of the United States. Britain, France, and the Netherlands all suffered humiliations when the Japanese ran amok in the early part of the war. The Fall of Singapore, in particular, was the most shameful defeat Great Britain suffered in modern history.
My suspicion is that the asexual Asian nerd stereotype is strong in the Anglophone countries due to the size and particular selection of immigrants from East Asia they received. Other European countries with far fewer East Asians tend to exoticize them and sometimes ascribe to them a different set of traits.Replies: @Talha
Peace.Replies: @Twinkie
I don’t know exactly what you mean, but I don’t harbor any hostility toward Anglophone countries. I am, dare I say, fond of them.
Martial history is typically elite history and may be unreflective of the general population. Also, Japan has not done well in shooting sports. It has had only one gold medal in Olympic shooting (Korea has had 7 while China has had over 20).
That explanation is unsatisfactory, to say the least. Many nations participated in the colonial domination of China (see the troops that suppressed the Boxer Rebellion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion#/media/File:Boxer2y.jpg). In fact, the German Foreign Office edited Kaiser Wilhelm II’s embarrassing “Hun speech” (http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/pdf/eng/503_Wilhelm%20II_Hun%20Speech_84.pdf)… which some blame for the atrocities and looting that followed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion#Occupation.2C_looting_and_atrocities
Japan was not militarily dominated by anybody until the Pacific War, and even then only by the might of the United States. Britain, France, and the Netherlands all suffered humiliations when the Japanese ran amok in the early part of the war. The Fall of Singapore, in particular, was the most shameful defeat Great Britain suffered in modern history.
My suspicion is that the asexual Asian nerd stereotype is strong in the Anglophone countries due to the size and particular selection of immigrants from East Asia they received. Other European countries with far fewer East Asians tend to exoticize them and sometimes ascribe to them a different set of traits.
I forgot all bout the Japanese going crazy in the Pacific theater and rampaging over Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. You may be onto something with the kinds of immigrants they received from those places. Maybe if there were more Triad running around, we'd have Godfather-like movies in popular culture defining the perception.
Peace.Replies: @iffen
Japan was not militarily dominated by anybody until the Pacific War, and even then only by the might of the United States. Britain, France, and the Netherlands all suffered humiliations when the Japanese ran amok in the early part of the war. The Fall of Singapore, in particular, was the most shameful defeat Great Britain suffered in modern history.
My suspicion is that the asexual Asian nerd stereotype is strong in the Anglophone countries due to the size and particular selection of immigrants from East Asia they received. Other European countries with far fewer East Asians tend to exoticize them and sometimes ascribe to them a different set of traits.Replies: @Talha
Hey Twinkie,
Neither do I – except their rotten governments. But I was more talking on a personal level, if you ever find yourself in a walk-twenty-paces-turn-and-fire scenario with an Anglo that underestimates you – totally to your advantage.
I forgot all bout the Japanese going crazy in the Pacific theater and rampaging over Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. You may be onto something with the kinds of immigrants they received from those places. Maybe if there were more Triad running around, we’d have Godfather-like movies in popular culture defining the perception.
Peace.
Not anymore! :)Replies: @Talha
I forgot all bout the Japanese going crazy in the Pacific theater and rampaging over Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. You may be onto something with the kinds of immigrants they received from those places. Maybe if there were more Triad running around, we'd have Godfather-like movies in popular culture defining the perception.
Peace.Replies: @iffen
Neither do I – except their rotten governments.
Not anymore! 🙂
I anxiously await his metamorphosis into Shai Hulud and his plotting our future firmly on the Golden Path!
"'The problem of leadership is inevitably: Who will play god?' Paul Muad'Dib”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Emperor_of_Dune
Peace.
Not anymore! :)Replies: @Talha
Ha ha! The Trump doth triumph!
I anxiously await his metamorphosis into Shai Hulud and his plotting our future firmly on the Golden Path!
“‘The problem of leadership is inevitably: Who will play god?’ Paul Muad’Dib”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Emperor_of_Dune
Peace.