RSS
I spruced up my personal website recently. It was getting sort of cluttered. Also, the new theme should look better on mobile.
Not sure how long Twitter will be around, but as long as it’s around, make sure to follow me.
Got my copy of The Atheist Muslim: A Journey from Religion to Reason. I’m personally opposed to a term like “atheist Muslim,” because a Muslim by definition to me is not atheist. But the author, Ali Rizvi, is an interesting fellow.
Going to try and get to Land of Promise: An Economic History of the United States before Christmas. Don’t know if I’ll get to it, but it’s been on my “to-read” list for a while.
Has anyone ever thought that the novel Musashi was somewhat reminiscent of Cúchulainn? No idea why I think this, but it’s always been on my mind…
I think someone keeps asking about South Asian genetic signatures in Southeast Asia, and I keep forgetting to respond to them. I think there was old (say Iron Age) gene flow from South Asia to various parts of Southeast Asia (basically the cores of Hindu-Buddhist archaic semi-historical polities such as Angkor era Cambodia), and, also more recent gene flow due to colonialism era migration mediated by Europeans. Also, I suspect there was more gene flow from early Holocene Southeast Asia into South Asia than we currently comprehend.
Ten years after first reading it I appreciate Adam K Webb’s Beyond the Global Culture War more. Why? Probably because universal liberal democracy seems less assured as the final stationary state of society in all places now than it did then. It’s an interesting book in part because it attacks the global cultural element with which it is probably easiest to identify me with.
English
Arabic
Chinese (Simplified)
Dutch
French
German
Hebrew
Hindi
Italian
Japanese
Korean
Persian
Polish
Portuguese
Russian
Spanish
Swedish
Turkish
Vietnamese
An observation about Trump: He doesn’t seem to have any sense of humour. I can’t imagine Trump laughing outside of an affected chuckle I’ve seen once or twice. Does he not appreciate humour? What is the significance of this? Humour is often about nuanced mental changes in perspectives. Does his lack of this kind of a sense of humour related to his thinking generally?
Perhaps the American penchant for obvious slapstick is the Trump brand of humour.
Two issues with the new personal site:
1. Your Feedburner feed (http://feeds.feedburner.com/RazibKhansTotalFeed) now links to posts at razib.com instead of here. I’m pretty sure it linked directly here before.
2. The teaser post on razib.com doesn’t seem to link to the post here, or if it does, the link is very well-camouflaged.
The end result is that there is no way to navigate from the Feedburner feed to the full post here.
Your personal website now doesn’t post your new blog posts properly. It only loads partial RSS instead of full RSS. Makes it harder to track all your good writing!
Hey Razib,
I agree with you in being “opposed to a term like ‘atheist Muslim,’ because a Muslim by definition to me is not atheist.” I think this should be fairly basic. Just as you can’t be an athiest Christian – makes no sense. Now this is the other side of the coin of what you mentioned in the other post of how WNs try to racialize Islam – this is simply being done now by an ex-Muslim.
One thing I noticed about Ali Rizvi is that he seems to be a very Left-leaning liberal type in both outlook and lifestyle (looks to be late thirties/early forties, not married and no kids). This seems to be the overwhelming trend among people who leave Islam (looking at writings, blogs, videos, etc.) – I mean like over 95% from my experience. Some of them are homosexuals, but most of them (especially the prominent ones) go atheist and Left-liberal, don’t really settle down and have a traditional family life with kids or keep conservative viewpoints.
Which is why I was a bit surprised when coming across someone like yourself that has a kind of conservative outlook and is married, kid, etc. Is your experience different, are there a bunch of conservative/traditional ex-Muslims* you know of or are they mostly, in your experience, as I have described?
Peace.
*Assuming they are even real ex-Muslims – some of these guys that are evangelical Christians that say they are ex-Muslims have very, very dubious credentials and have been exposed as frauds like Ergun Caner, Walid Shoebat, etc.
i think it's a mix that we're less common, and, that there is a bias in who is open and proud of these things. many atheists from muslim backgrounds are still integrated in a community where islam is normative. so they wouldn't want to advertise too much. i know people who are pretty bourgeois who are like me, if not well. most of them are much more low key than 'activists.'
re: rizvi. agree on his politics, but like sam harris i find that he is fair. even when i disagree with both of them i think they're being honest in their position and not engaging in cant and virtue-signaling.
Your website is broken. The copies of blog posts on your website are just summaries and I don’t see a link to the original. They all just end with ellipses. I guess you used feedburner to syndicate, but switched it to summaries? Plus they each have an RSS feed for the comments, which is empty, because it’s the comments at your site.
Interested to hear you elaborate upon “the global cultural element with which it is probably easiest to identify me.” Are we talkin’ “Athiest Public-Intellectual Scientist of Pakistani extraction who calls himself a Conservative but is probably more just a common-sense rationalist who hews to no particular line but instead follows reason and is devoted to nuclear family norms and loves capsicum?”
Kidding aside, I would need to read the Culture Wars book to place you in its schema. But absent that reading, maybe throw us a bone here. 🙂
you zeroed in on why i 'identify' as conservative. in the USA today conservatives seem to exhibit more acceptance of diversity of belief in regards to various ideas/issues. at least in public (i.e., many liberals are quite open minded in private, just worried about getting 'called out' in public on any heterodoxy).
i believe that webb calls this 'demotic.' though it's different from what you identify above in details. pretty much hedonistic materialists who reduce stuff to individual level.
Perhaps the American penchant for obvious slapstick is the Trump brand of humour.Replies: @Sean, @syonredux
Self depreciating humour is what Trump doesn’t have, but his wolfish smirk comes from the depths of his being, and signifies that he has the ability to be amused by other peoples’ misfortunes.
Perhaps in a few weeks you will unwrap a brass plaque with a list of Donald Trump’s achievements next to a list of your own.
Kidding aside, I would need to read the Culture Wars book to place you in its schema. But absent that reading, maybe throw us a bone here. :)Replies: @Razib Khan, @Razib Khan, @Razib Khan
i’m bangladeshi. pretty clear if you google me.
Kidding aside, I would need to read the Culture Wars book to place you in its schema. But absent that reading, maybe throw us a bone here. :)Replies: @Razib Khan, @Razib Khan, @Razib Khan
Athiest Public-Intellectual Scientist of Pakistani extraction who calls himself a Conservative but is probably more just a common-sense rationalist who hews to no particular line but instead follows reason and is devoted to nuclear family norms and loves capsicum?Athiest Public-Intellectual Scientist of Pakistani extraction who calls himself a Conservative but is probably more just a common-sense rationalist who hews to no particular line but instead follows reason and is devoted to nuclear family norms and loves capsicum?
you zeroed in on why i ‘identify’ as conservative. in the USA today conservatives seem to exhibit more acceptance of diversity of belief in regards to various ideas/issues. at least in public (i.e., many liberals are quite open minded in private, just worried about getting ‘called out’ in public on any heterodoxy).
I agree with you in being "opposed to a term like 'atheist Muslim,' because a Muslim by definition to me is not atheist." I think this should be fairly basic. Just as you can't be an athiest Christian - makes no sense. Now this is the other side of the coin of what you mentioned in the other post of how WNs try to racialize Islam - this is simply being done now by an ex-Muslim.
One thing I noticed about Ali Rizvi is that he seems to be a very Left-leaning liberal type in both outlook and lifestyle (looks to be late thirties/early forties, not married and no kids). This seems to be the overwhelming trend among people who leave Islam (looking at writings, blogs, videos, etc.) - I mean like over 95% from my experience. Some of them are homosexuals, but most of them (especially the prominent ones) go atheist and Left-liberal, don't really settle down and have a traditional family life with kids or keep conservative viewpoints.
Which is why I was a bit surprised when coming across someone like yourself that has a kind of conservative outlook and is married, kid, etc. Is your experience different, are there a bunch of conservative/traditional ex-Muslims* you know of or are they mostly, in your experience, as I have described?
Peace.
*Assuming they are even real ex-Muslims - some of these guys that are evangelical Christians that say they are ex-Muslims have very, very dubious credentials and have been exposed as frauds like Ergun Caner, Walid Shoebat, etc.Replies: @Razib Khan, @syonredux
Which is why I was a bit surprised when coming across someone like yourself that has a kind of conservative outlook and is married, kid, etc. Is your experience different, are there a bunch of conservative/traditional ex-Muslims* you know of or are they mostly, in your experience, as I have described?
i think it’s a mix that we’re less common, and, that there is a bias in who is open and proud of these things. many atheists from muslim backgrounds are still integrated in a community where islam is normative. so they wouldn’t want to advertise too much. i know people who are pretty bourgeois who are like me, if not well. most of them are much more low key than ‘activists.’
re: rizvi. agree on his politics, but like sam harris i find that he is fair. even when i disagree with both of them i think they’re being honest in their position and not engaging in cant and virtue-signaling.
Kidding aside, I would need to read the Culture Wars book to place you in its schema. But absent that reading, maybe throw us a bone here. :)Replies: @Razib Khan, @Razib Khan, @Razib Khan
“the global cultural element with which it is probably easiest to identify me.”
i believe that webb calls this ‘demotic.’ though it’s different from what you identify above in details. pretty much hedonistic materialists who reduce stuff to individual level.
thanks. unz feed seems to have shifted and i’m tweaking things. right now i’m pointing feed links back to this site.
Perhaps the American penchant for obvious slapstick is the Trump brand of humour.Replies: @Sean, @syonredux
Dunno if Americans have a “penchant for obvious slapstick.” The Marx Brothers, James Thurber, Bob Newhart, Jack Benny, Dorothy Parker, Bill Murray, Mark Twain, Ambrose Bierce, etc.: not much evidence there for Americans loving “obvious slapstick.”
Does he really fit under "humor" though? Admittedly I've only read a few of his stories (like "incident at owl creek bridge", "Chickamauga")...but they didn't strike me as a exactly funny...Replies: @syonredux
American humor prefers more observational techniques. However, the style of observational humor (while not exclusively American) is very much a staple of the American style of humor since it seeks to point out the aspects of American culture and social discourse which are obvious while at the same time highlighting their ridiculousness."
- Wikipedia
I agree with you in being "opposed to a term like 'atheist Muslim,' because a Muslim by definition to me is not atheist." I think this should be fairly basic. Just as you can't be an athiest Christian - makes no sense. Now this is the other side of the coin of what you mentioned in the other post of how WNs try to racialize Islam - this is simply being done now by an ex-Muslim.
One thing I noticed about Ali Rizvi is that he seems to be a very Left-leaning liberal type in both outlook and lifestyle (looks to be late thirties/early forties, not married and no kids). This seems to be the overwhelming trend among people who leave Islam (looking at writings, blogs, videos, etc.) - I mean like over 95% from my experience. Some of them are homosexuals, but most of them (especially the prominent ones) go atheist and Left-liberal, don't really settle down and have a traditional family life with kids or keep conservative viewpoints.
Which is why I was a bit surprised when coming across someone like yourself that has a kind of conservative outlook and is married, kid, etc. Is your experience different, are there a bunch of conservative/traditional ex-Muslims* you know of or are they mostly, in your experience, as I have described?
Peace.
*Assuming they are even real ex-Muslims - some of these guys that are evangelical Christians that say they are ex-Muslims have very, very dubious credentials and have been exposed as frauds like Ergun Caner, Walid Shoebat, etc.Replies: @Razib Khan, @syonredux
I’ve met atheists/agnostics who refer to themselves as “culturally Christian/Muslim/Hindu.” The notion seems to be that they still bear the cultural imprint of the faith.
It’s also done by the SJW Left as well.For example, I once heard a Leftist academic at a conference refer to “Muslim ancestry.”
hinduism doesn't require theism. there are atheistic varieties. also, it is explicitly an ethnic religion in many variants. the analogy to xtianity and islam breaks down there, as these emphasize belief and not ethnicity, and are pretty essential aspects of them (in contrast, judaism is like hinduism in having an explicit ethnic dimension).Replies: @syonredux
Sure, anyone can say one is 'culturally' Muslim but even that is a bit incoherent. It makes more sense to me to be an atheist who claims to be culturally Pakistani or Libyan or Albanian, etc. (with regards to food, dress, etc.) even though those cultures are informed by Islam. To me, one cannot extract the word 'Muslim' from 'Islam'; for instance, the common shared Muslim culture is that which is specifically informed by Islam (one can say the Shariah) - otherwise the various cultures simply share some common threads that all cultures do.
What makes this more elusive is that many people like Mr. Rizvi don't seem to really be on board with a lot of these particulars that stem from Muslim culture as it is informed from Islam. For instance, I can tell you without asking him what he thinks of the fact that daughters get half the inheritance of sons, or that the man has the right of at-will verbal divorce but the woman must petition the court, etc. - that is Muslim culture as those particulars are formulated by the Shariah with unanimous agreement from Senegal to Selangor - whether the authorities actually grant it legal enforcement or not.
Furthermore, he is an activist (and associated with militant atheists like Mr. Dawkins) and isn't simply neutral with how he approaches said 'Muslim' culture:
"Ali is an avid and vocal advocate for secularism, science, and reform, particularly in the Muslim community."
https://richarddawkins.net/aliarizvi/
You can see why Muslims (especially traditional-minded ones as myself) would have a stake in making sure the demarcation between atheism and 'Muslim' is kept alive and strong.
Peace.
“Ambrose Bierce”
Does he really fit under “humor” though? Admittedly I’ve only read a few of his stories (like “incident at owl creek bridge”, “Chickamauga”)…but they didn’t strike me as a exactly funny…
Conservative
(n.) A statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
Cynic
(n.) A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. Hence the custom among the Scythians of plucking out a cynic's eyes to improve his vision.
Egotist
(n.) A person of low taste, more interested in himself than in me.
Faith
(n.) Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.
Lawyer
(n.) One skilled in circumvention of the law.
Marriage
(n.) A household consisting of a master, a mistress, and two slaves, making in all, two.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil's_Dictionary
And even his horror stories will sometimes feature his biting wit. Cf this example from "The Damned Thing":http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/l_damned.htmReplies: @German_reader
I’ve met atheists/agnostics who refer to themselves as “culturally Christian/Muslim/Hindu.” The notion seems to be that they still bear the cultural imprint of the faith.
hinduism doesn’t require theism. there are atheistic varieties. also, it is explicitly an ethnic religion in many variants. the analogy to xtianity and islam breaks down there, as these emphasize belief and not ethnicity, and are pretty essential aspects of them (in contrast, judaism is like hinduism in having an explicit ethnic dimension).
And there are also atheistic/agnostic European conservatives who identify as Christians and promote traditional forms of Christianity in the name of national unity (cf Action française).Replies: @German_reader, @Razib Khan
Does he really fit under "humor" though? Admittedly I've only read a few of his stories (like "incident at owl creek bridge", "Chickamauga")...but they didn't strike me as a exactly funny...Replies: @syonredux
Try The Devil’s Dictionary. A satirical masterpiece:
Conservative
(n.) A statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
Cynic
(n.) A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. Hence the custom among the Scythians of plucking out a cynic’s eyes to improve his vision.
Egotist
(n.) A person of low taste, more interested in himself than in me.
Faith
(n.) Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.
Lawyer
(n.) One skilled in circumvention of the law.
Marriage
(n.) A household consisting of a master, a mistress, and two slaves, making in all, two.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil’s_Dictionary
And even his horror stories will sometimes feature his biting wit. Cf this example from “The Damned Thing”:
http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/l_damned.htm
re: atheist muslim. here are some arguments
1) some would argue that society defines you. if you are defined as a muslim perhaps you ‘own it’.
2) prejudice against muslims. show solidarity with believing muslims by identifying as muslim.
3) accept functional importance of religion and have fuzzy feelings toward muslims and islamic community.
even if a religion is fundamentally based on belief, like islam and christianity are, it isn’t that uncommon for people to have a cultural identification with a religious community. i know people who identify as ‘cultural mormons,’ which again is pretty weird considering that mormonism’s distinctiveness has to do with a set of beliefs sharply at variance with american christianity as a whole…
*At least the ones who aren't trying to revive the worship of Odin....Replies: @Razib Khan, @Razib Khan
hinduism doesn't require theism. there are atheistic varieties. also, it is explicitly an ethnic religion in many variants. the analogy to xtianity and islam breaks down there, as these emphasize belief and not ethnicity, and are pretty essential aspects of them (in contrast, judaism is like hinduism in having an explicit ethnic dimension).Replies: @syonredux
Sure. An easier case can be made for being a Jewish or Hindu atheist. As you point out, both have strong ethnic aspects. That being said, I can still understand how some people can characterize themselves as being Christian/Muslim atheists. They will, after all, bear the imprint of the faith that shaped their culture. For example, I’ve long noted how atheists with Christian backgrounds tend to understand religion in strongly Christian terms (central texts, formal creeds, etc).
And there are also atheistic/agnostic European conservatives who identify as Christians and promote traditional forms of Christianity in the name of national unity (cf Action française).
Conservative
(n.) A statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
Cynic
(n.) A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. Hence the custom among the Scythians of plucking out a cynic's eyes to improve his vision.
Egotist
(n.) A person of low taste, more interested in himself than in me.
Faith
(n.) Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.
Lawyer
(n.) One skilled in circumvention of the law.
Marriage
(n.) A household consisting of a master, a mistress, and two slaves, making in all, two.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil's_Dictionary
And even his horror stories will sometimes feature his biting wit. Cf this example from "The Damned Thing":http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/l_damned.htmReplies: @German_reader
Thanks for the answer…have to admit some of this is quite funny (in a bitter, misanthropic way); if I ever find the time, I’ll have to read the devil’s dictionary.
And there are also atheistic/agnostic European conservatives who identify as Christians and promote traditional forms of Christianity in the name of national unity (cf Action française).Replies: @German_reader, @Razib Khan
Action francaise is interesting though…didn’t Maurras personally believe that the gospels had many subversive elements that needed to be suppressed and that in some ways pagan values would have been better for the nation? And he did come into conflict with the Church’s hierarchy, so I guess this shows there are clear limits to the viability of a purely cultural Christianity.
1) some would argue that society defines you. if you are defined as a muslim perhaps you 'own it'.
2) prejudice against muslims. show solidarity with believing muslims by identifying as muslim.
3) accept functional importance of religion and have fuzzy feelings toward muslims and islamic community.
even if a religion is fundamentally based on belief, like islam and christianity are, it isn't that uncommon for people to have a cultural identification with a religious community. i know people who identify as 'cultural mormons,' which again is pretty weird considering that mormonism's distinctiveness has to do with a set of beliefs sharply at variance with american christianity as a whole...Replies: @syonredux
Pretty sure that that’s how a lot atheist/agnostic WNs* view Christianity. It’s a central marker of “Europeannes.” Hence, they will defend it against outsiders, etc.
*At least the ones who aren’t trying to revive the worship of Odin….
which is pretty dumb though i see where it's coming from. i read *germanization of early medieval christianity*. it's an interesting book, but not entirely persuasive.
also, to follow up, WNs like to say that pre-enlightenment xtians were racialists too. but that reduces them to cut-outs. WN is a product of the enlightenment, and attempts to imbue christianity with race consciousness seems unstable because it rapidly becomes non-christianity (one reason that paganism has become more popular among WN in the USA, and is dominant in europe among that hardcore set). if the confederacy had won i assume that race-based slavery and christianity would have persisted together, but it was a weird fit forced by structural conditions.
i think axial age oriented religions generally have a built in bias toward universalism as opposed to particularism.... some particularism as a concession to reality can persist. but extreme forms, like racial nationalism, have difficulty unless the religion is not a universal one (some variants of hindusim and judaism are easy to synthesize with racialism because of this reason, and christian identity seems to have abandoned universal salvation and descent from adam and eve from what i can tell).Replies: @syonredux
*At least the ones who aren't trying to revive the worship of Odin....Replies: @Razib Khan, @Razib Khan
Pretty sure that that’s how a lot atheist/agnostic WNs* view Christianity. It’s a central marker of “Europeannes.” Hence, they will defend it against outsiders, etc.
which is pretty dumb though i see where it’s coming from. i read *germanization of early medieval christianity*. it’s an interesting book, but not entirely persuasive.
And there are also atheistic/agnostic European conservatives who identify as Christians and promote traditional forms of Christianity in the name of national unity (cf Action française).Replies: @German_reader, @Razib Khan
For example, I’ve long noted how atheists with Christian backgrounds tend to understand religion in strongly Christian terms (central texts, formal creeds, etc).
this is true for non-christians in christian majority societies. e.g., some muslim americans basically treat islam in a wya that makes more sense as a sect of protestant christianity (i noticed this in particular with the way that free will has become normative despite the ambivalence on this by sunni islam traditionally). similarly, christians in non-christian societies sometimes start refashioning their religion. e.g., i’ve seen south indian xtians from kerala arguing for arranged marriages and joint family as based on the bible…
to be concrete, i’m more of a ‘cultural christian’ than a ‘cultural muslim.’ since most of my friends were christian, if religious, i understand religion in christian terms…
"Yet, although Arabic developed dramatically as a language of literature and commerce, it retained its character as a sacred language heavily laden with Qur'anic presuppositions and definitions...The problem was thrown into relief when Christians tried to articulate ideas in terminology already dominated by Qur'anic images. For example, the notion of tawhid (monotheistic belief) had essentially been defined by the Qur'an to exclude multiplicity in God, as contrasted to shirk (associating others with God). This made it difficult for Christians to explain and defend the doctrine of the Trinity in Arabic as consistent with monotheism without being accused of polytheism, and consequently idolatry."
http://www.brill.com/defending-people-truth-early-islamic-periodI know what you are talking about, since I've seen it - I would argue that they are actually reverting to certain Mutazilite viewpoints without being conscious of the fact since that school has been out of major discourse for a long, long time. Though I've actually seen certain modernist scholars come straight out and say they are Mutazilite.
Peace.
*Note: I can see why someone would come to this conclusion based on writings by non-Muslims. Very few non-Muslim writers - I have come across - articulate the concept of iktisaab properly without resorting to analogy or comparison with other belief systems. Of course, this is the Ashari/Maturidi view - the Athari view (while recognizing iktisaab) takes a much more simple go - the mechanics are a secret not revealed to anyone in creation, thus don't delve into it or dwell on it - just do what you're supposed to do. This position is likely due to the fact that this specific issue is naturally very elusive and was responsible for the lion's share of heterodox sects (Jabbriyah, Qadriyyah [not the Sufi order], etc.) in early Islamic history.
*At least the ones who aren't trying to revive the worship of Odin....Replies: @Razib Khan, @Razib Khan
Pretty sure that that’s how a lot atheist/agnostic WNs* view Christianity. It’s a central marker of “Europeannes.” Hence, they will defend it against outsiders, etc.
also, to follow up, WNs like to say that pre-enlightenment xtians were racialists too. but that reduces them to cut-outs. WN is a product of the enlightenment, and attempts to imbue christianity with race consciousness seems unstable because it rapidly becomes non-christianity (one reason that paganism has become more popular among WN in the USA, and is dominant in europe among that hardcore set). if the confederacy had won i assume that race-based slavery and christianity would have persisted together, but it was a weird fit forced by structural conditions.
i think axial age oriented religions generally have a built in bias toward universalism as opposed to particularism…. some particularism as a concession to reality can persist. but extreme forms, like racial nationalism, have difficulty unless the religion is not a universal one (some variants of hindusim and judaism are easy to synthesize with racialism because of this reason, and christian identity seems to have abandoned universal salvation and descent from adam and eve from what i can tell).
Yeah. Cf how Protestant norms have impacted American Catholics and Jews. Reform Judaism , for example, can be read as a “Protestantized” version of Judaism.
reform judaism went pretty far in this direction. many non-reform jews complained that reform temples felt like protestant churches (with organs?). also, reform disavowed jewish nationhood in the 19th century. but over the past generation reform has become more 'traditionalist,' including embracing nationhood and such. i think part of it is that jews don't need to compromise with a very dominant xtian mainstream culture anymore.Replies: @Joe Q.
The New Testament was inclusive. Too inclusive. Eventually non-Jews took over and called the movement Christianity and Reform Judaism disappeared.
In the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther dismissed indulgences and confessions to priests because he realized that the shed blood of Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. He also realized that Christians, like Jews, were perfectly capable of reading scriptures for themselves.
Reform Judaism reappeared after Napoleon emancipated European Jews.Replies: @syonredux, @Talha
also, to follow up, WNs like to say that pre-enlightenment xtians were racialists too. but that reduces them to cut-outs. WN is a product of the enlightenment, and attempts to imbue christianity with race consciousness seems unstable because it rapidly becomes non-christianity (one reason that paganism has become more popular among WN in the USA, and is dominant in europe among that hardcore set). if the confederacy had won i assume that race-based slavery and christianity would have persisted together, but it was a weird fit forced by structural conditions.
i think axial age oriented religions generally have a built in bias toward universalism as opposed to particularism.... some particularism as a concession to reality can persist. but extreme forms, like racial nationalism, have difficulty unless the religion is not a universal one (some variants of hindusim and judaism are easy to synthesize with racialism because of this reason, and christian identity seems to have abandoned universal salvation and descent from adam and eve from what i can tell).Replies: @syonredux
Yeah. Christianity, with its universalist creed (“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus”) , is not exactly easily adaptable to extreme forms of racialism/nationalism.As you note, that’s almost certainly why many hardcore WNs are moving towards Paganism…..which tends to give them a kind of LARPy aspect. I mean, it’s pretty hard to take seriously a bunch of guys going off in the woods to pray to Thor or Zeus….
Do any WN pagans actually believe the moon is a goddess? The sun, the winds, etc.? Of course not, but a pagan farmer 2,500 years ago in northern Europe could see the sun and the moon and think without any internal contradictions "there goes a god." Nobody who has been raised in modern society can do that.
Christian universalism, however, is as much of a leap of faith as belief that the sun is a flaming chariot pulled across the sky, but it's very hard to discredit. Partly due to human nature and partly due to relatively recent lack of empirical knowlege. Reverting to old, discredited religions is a manner of repudiating what people are beginning to see as another disappointment, but it's a common case of looking for solutions in the wrong places. Really, it's a failure in terms of human creativity and imagination.Replies: @Twinkie, @Talha, @German_reader
Yeah. Cf how Protestant norms have impacted American Catholics and Jews. Reform Judaism , for example, can be read as a “Protestantized” version of Judaism.
reform judaism went pretty far in this direction. many non-reform jews complained that reform temples felt like protestant churches (with organs?). also, reform disavowed jewish nationhood in the 19th century. but over the past generation reform has become more ‘traditionalist,’ including embracing nationhood and such. i think part of it is that jews don’t need to compromise with a very dominant xtian mainstream culture anymore.
There were places (mostly Europe, in the 19th c., IIRC) where Reform Jews observed their principal day of worship on Sunday -- for the same reason.
I think the move back to traditionalism in Reform Judaism is partly due to lack of a "need to compromise" as Razib mentions -- the other side of this coin is a renewed desire to affirm a sort of cultural or religious identity, and a recognition that Reform Judaism as it was being practiced in the mid-20th century typically led directly to disaffiliation or assimilation.
The New Testament is Reform Judaism. Jesus and his original followers were Jewish. Thanks to Jesus, the Original Reform Jews no longer had to follow kosher laws and didn’t have to perform animal sacrifices at the Temple since the shed blood and death of Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. The Original Reform Jews were no longer required to be fruitful and multiple; Jesus supposedly never married nor had children and the Apostle Paul/Paul/St. Paul said that the only reason to get married was if you were horny and couldn’t control yourself, otherwise it was better single and celibate like him (1 Corinthians 7:1-2, 7-9).
The New Testament was inclusive. Too inclusive. Eventually non-Jews took over and called the movement Christianity and Reform Judaism disappeared.
In the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther dismissed indulgences and confessions to priests because he realized that the shed blood of Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. He also realized that Christians, like Jews, were perfectly capable of reading scriptures for themselves.
Reform Judaism reappeared after Napoleon emancipated European Jews.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_at_Antioch
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_the_GalatiansReplies: @Talha, @Triumph104
I agree with some of the things you are saying, but...If I remember correctly, that lies squarely at Paul's feet. I believe even James the Just, and those aligned with him, were following the Mosaic Law.
Peace.
Probably not your responsibility, but the “next” link on this site (not your personal one) has disappeared. If you follow the “← Afro-Asiatic and Eurasian Backflow” link at the top of the page, the resulting page doesn’t have a corresponding “Open Thread, 11/27/2016 –>” link to get back here… I’m positive it used to.
The New Testament was inclusive. Too inclusive. Eventually non-Jews took over and called the movement Christianity and Reform Judaism disappeared.
In the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther dismissed indulgences and confessions to priests because he realized that the shed blood of Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. He also realized that Christians, like Jews, were perfectly capable of reading scriptures for themselves.
Reform Judaism reappeared after Napoleon emancipated European Jews.Replies: @syonredux, @Talha
It’s a bit more complicated than that, as the early “Jesus movement” saw a lot of tension over whether pagan converts needed to obey the ritual aspects of Jewish law (dietary restrictions,circumcision, etc):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_at_Antioch
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_the_Galatians
Peace.
The real problem with WN paganism is that none of them actually believe it. Religion takes steps up according to general knowledge. If you don’t understand beasts (i.e. you haven’t domesticated animals) you tend to worship them. If you do not understand the sky/weather you assign gods to the sun, moon, thunder and winds. Finally, when you have mapped out the movements of the planets and stars and realize they are rocks, you scoff at the gods to which they were previously assigned.
Do any WN pagans actually believe the moon is a goddess? The sun, the winds, etc.? Of course not, but a pagan farmer 2,500 years ago in northern Europe could see the sun and the moon and think without any internal contradictions “there goes a god.” Nobody who has been raised in modern society can do that.
Christian universalism, however, is as much of a leap of faith as belief that the sun is a flaming chariot pulled across the sky, but it’s very hard to discredit. Partly due to human nature and partly due to relatively recent lack of empirical knowlege. Reverting to old, discredited religions is a manner of repudiating what people are beginning to see as another disappointment, but it’s a common case of looking for solutions in the wrong places. Really, it’s a failure in terms of human creativity and imagination.
Peace.
What's your idea for a "solution"? (serious question, although I find aspects of Greco-Roman antiquity highly attractive, I agree with you about the non-viability of any return to the old gods...but at the same time I absolutely can't believe in Christianity and given the actions of the mainstream churches in my own country I have to regard a large part of today's Christianity as harmful and destructive. Personally I'm mostly fine with being irreligious, but apparently that isn't the case for many people).
Do any WN pagans actually believe the moon is a goddess? The sun, the winds, etc.? Of course not, but a pagan farmer 2,500 years ago in northern Europe could see the sun and the moon and think without any internal contradictions "there goes a god." Nobody who has been raised in modern society can do that.
Christian universalism, however, is as much of a leap of faith as belief that the sun is a flaming chariot pulled across the sky, but it's very hard to discredit. Partly due to human nature and partly due to relatively recent lack of empirical knowlege. Reverting to old, discredited religions is a manner of repudiating what people are beginning to see as another disappointment, but it's a common case of looking for solutions in the wrong places. Really, it's a failure in terms of human creativity and imagination.Replies: @Twinkie, @Talha, @German_reader
Really?
Precisely because it’s not the same qualitatively as pagan animism.
I suppose this depends on what the said white nationalists seek. Those who want “restoration” – the proverbial 1950’s whitopia – either do or should realize that the United States of that time was very Christian. Those white nationalists who indulge in paganism strike me as mostly younger people who watched too many Viking movies or otherwise engage in varying degrees of Nordicism.
I don’t know Cuchulainn from jack, but The Samurai Trilogy, starring Toshiro Mifune as Musashi, is very worthwhile, if only for the line “I learned something today.”
Hey syonredux,
Sure, anyone can say one is ‘culturally’ Muslim but even that is a bit incoherent. It makes more sense to me to be an atheist who claims to be culturally Pakistani or Libyan or Albanian, etc. (with regards to food, dress, etc.) even though those cultures are informed by Islam. To me, one cannot extract the word ‘Muslim’ from ‘Islam’; for instance, the common shared Muslim culture is that which is specifically informed by Islam (one can say the Shariah) – otherwise the various cultures simply share some common threads that all cultures do.
What makes this more elusive is that many people like Mr. Rizvi don’t seem to really be on board with a lot of these particulars that stem from Muslim culture as it is informed from Islam. For instance, I can tell you without asking him what he thinks of the fact that daughters get half the inheritance of sons, or that the man has the right of at-will verbal divorce but the woman must petition the court, etc. – that is Muslim culture as those particulars are formulated by the Shariah with unanimous agreement from Senegal to Selangor – whether the authorities actually grant it legal enforcement or not.
Furthermore, he is an activist (and associated with militant atheists like Mr. Dawkins) and isn’t simply neutral with how he approaches said ‘Muslim’ culture:
“Ali is an avid and vocal advocate for secularism, science, and reform, particularly in the Muslim community.”
https://richarddawkins.net/aliarizvi/
You can see why Muslims (especially traditional-minded ones as myself) would have a stake in making sure the demarcation between atheism and ‘Muslim’ is kept alive and strong.
Peace.
Do any WN pagans actually believe the moon is a goddess? The sun, the winds, etc.? Of course not, but a pagan farmer 2,500 years ago in northern Europe could see the sun and the moon and think without any internal contradictions "there goes a god." Nobody who has been raised in modern society can do that.
Christian universalism, however, is as much of a leap of faith as belief that the sun is a flaming chariot pulled across the sky, but it's very hard to discredit. Partly due to human nature and partly due to relatively recent lack of empirical knowlege. Reverting to old, discredited religions is a manner of repudiating what people are beginning to see as another disappointment, but it's a common case of looking for solutions in the wrong places. Really, it's a failure in terms of human creativity and imagination.Replies: @Twinkie, @Talha, @German_reader
Hey Bill P,
Yeah, it seems since quantum mechanics basically dashed our Newtonian assumptions – it nailed the coffin on certain belief systems. I have an Indian coworker who takes his family regularly to Hindu services at his local temple. When I asked him about his beliefs, he said he didn’t really believe in any of it, but goes through the rituals of making offerings to the various gods anyway for the cultural heritage. Of course, as Razib pointed out, Hinduism is quite malleable and accommodating in that way so it really doesn’t matter. Maybe the rise of this new paganism will be like the example of my coworker. Of course, if they really want to go whole-hog someone has got to pony up the money to start erecting Grand Temples of Odin somewhere – that’s where belief comes in – do you really want to part with your money and effort to create a grand edifice for something you don’t believe in? My coworker donates to the Hindu temples – will his children?
Peace.
The New Testament was inclusive. Too inclusive. Eventually non-Jews took over and called the movement Christianity and Reform Judaism disappeared.
In the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther dismissed indulgences and confessions to priests because he realized that the shed blood of Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. He also realized that Christians, like Jews, were perfectly capable of reading scriptures for themselves.
Reform Judaism reappeared after Napoleon emancipated European Jews.Replies: @syonredux, @Talha
Hey Triumph,
I agree with some of the things you are saying, but…
If I remember correctly, that lies squarely at Paul’s feet. I believe even James the Just, and those aligned with him, were following the Mosaic Law.
Peace.
Hey Razib,
Can’t escape this – it sets the discourse – I’ve seen it happen time and time again. The majority religion has home-court advantage. Home-court advantage can be very, very powerful in setting the assumptions – this is what happened to a lot of Christian denominations when they started adopting Arabic as part of the early Abbasid administrative reforms:
“Yet, although Arabic developed dramatically as a language of literature and commerce, it retained its character as a sacred language heavily laden with Qur’anic presuppositions and definitions…The problem was thrown into relief when Christians tried to articulate ideas in terminology already dominated by Qur’anic images. For example, the notion of tawhid (monotheistic belief) had essentially been defined by the Qur’an to exclude multiplicity in God, as contrasted to shirk (associating others with God). This made it difficult for Christians to explain and defend the doctrine of the Trinity in Arabic as consistent with monotheism without being accused of polytheism, and consequently idolatry.”
http://www.brill.com/defending-people-truth-early-islamic-period
I know what you are talking about, since I’ve seen it – I would argue that they are actually reverting to certain Mutazilite viewpoints without being conscious of the fact since that school has been out of major discourse for a long, long time. Though I’ve actually seen certain modernist scholars come straight out and say they are Mutazilite.
Peace.
*Note: I can see why someone would come to this conclusion based on writings by non-Muslims. Very few non-Muslim writers – I have come across – articulate the concept of iktisaab properly without resorting to analogy or comparison with other belief systems. Of course, this is the Ashari/Maturidi view – the Athari view (while recognizing iktisaab) takes a much more simple go – the mechanics are a secret not revealed to anyone in creation, thus don’t delve into it or dwell on it – just do what you’re supposed to do. This position is likely due to the fact that this specific issue is naturally very elusive and was responsible for the lion’s share of heterodox sects (Jabbriyah, Qadriyyah [not the Sufi order], etc.) in early Islamic history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_at_Antioch
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_the_GalatiansReplies: @Talha, @Triumph104
LOL! Should have read your comment first – mine is completely redundant!
Peace.
I think it’s pretty well accepted: “American humor might also be distinguished by its most common type of humor, for example, more slapstick and physical comedy. There is less emphasis on understatement, and so the humor tends to be more open, rather than satirizing the social system through exaggeration.
American humor prefers more observational techniques. However, the style of observational humor (while not exclusively American) is very much a staple of the American style of humor since it seeks to point out the aspects of American culture and social discourse which are obvious while at the same time highlighting their ridiculousness.”
– Wikipedia
Just what we need to move the discussion forward.
I’d never call myself “culturally Catholic.” At the same time I’ve gotten in pretty fierce arguments with my wife about childrearing, insofar as I think it’s a good thing to try to make children internalize guilt when they’ve done something wrong, while my wife (who was raised Protestant) thinks it’s horrifying. Without internalized guilt, what do we rely upon though? Threat of punishment?
Do any WN pagans actually believe the moon is a goddess? The sun, the winds, etc.? Of course not, but a pagan farmer 2,500 years ago in northern Europe could see the sun and the moon and think without any internal contradictions "there goes a god." Nobody who has been raised in modern society can do that.
Christian universalism, however, is as much of a leap of faith as belief that the sun is a flaming chariot pulled across the sky, but it's very hard to discredit. Partly due to human nature and partly due to relatively recent lack of empirical knowlege. Reverting to old, discredited religions is a manner of repudiating what people are beginning to see as another disappointment, but it's a common case of looking for solutions in the wrong places. Really, it's a failure in terms of human creativity and imagination.Replies: @Twinkie, @Talha, @German_reader
“Really, it’s a failure in terms of human creativity and imagination.”
What’s your idea for a “solution”? (serious question, although I find aspects of Greco-Roman antiquity highly attractive, I agree with you about the non-viability of any return to the old gods…but at the same time I absolutely can’t believe in Christianity and given the actions of the mainstream churches in my own country I have to regard a large part of today’s Christianity as harmful and destructive. Personally I’m mostly fine with being irreligious, but apparently that isn’t the case for many people).
Trumps has an interesting upper lip, compare with the hypermasculine face https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4293313/figure/F2/
Maybe that’s why a nice smile does not come naturally to him.
From August 2015
Prescient.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_at_Antioch
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_the_GalatiansReplies: @Talha, @Triumph104
Thanks. I’m not religious and get all my biblical knowledge from television and radio evangelists. I never heard what you are saying. I could never be a Christian, believe something to be true for decades, only to have someone post a link showing that I’m in error.
I knew a woman who was a Seventh Day Adventist. She found a guy that she was interested in dating/marrying and wanted to know if he was open to conversion. He told her that the requirement to observe the Sabbath was abolished in Colossians 2:16-17. After verifying what he told her, she was so disillusioned that she became an atheist.
https://gotquestions.org/Sabbath-keeping.html
This is not unusual, people fall off their turtle every day.
believe something to be true for decades… she was so disillusioned that she became an atheist.
This is not unusual, people fall off their turtle every day.
I too am having issues with the RSS feed. In my case I think I’m subscribed to the Razib Khan Total Feed or something. Lately it is kicking out old articles (from late 2015) as “new”. Not sure what is going on.
reform judaism went pretty far in this direction. many non-reform jews complained that reform temples felt like protestant churches (with organs?). also, reform disavowed jewish nationhood in the 19th century. but over the past generation reform has become more 'traditionalist,' including embracing nationhood and such. i think part of it is that jews don't need to compromise with a very dominant xtian mainstream culture anymore.Replies: @Joe Q.
Many parts of the Reform Jewish service were expressly modelled on church worship. The early Reformers admired the pageantry / majesty / decorum of Christian religious services — traditional Jewish services are chaotic and free-wheeling by comparison.
There were places (mostly Europe, in the 19th c., IIRC) where Reform Jews observed their principal day of worship on Sunday — for the same reason.
I think the move back to traditionalism in Reform Judaism is partly due to lack of a “need to compromise” as Razib mentions — the other side of this coin is a renewed desire to affirm a sort of cultural or religious identity, and a recognition that Reform Judaism as it was being practiced in the mid-20th century typically led directly to disaffiliation or assimilation.
In 2010, four ancient samples were sequenced, he reported. Twenty or 30 more were sequenced in 2014. “In 2015, things went into hyper-drive, and several hundred samples were sequenced,” said Reich. “We’ve sequenced more than 1,000 samples in our own lab—there’s not enough time to publish” all the data they are collecting.
https://nihrecord.nih.gov/newsletters/2016/10_21_2016/story1.htm
Razib,
Don’t know if you would be able to respond since your leaving soon, but have you seen Jeff Guo’s recent piece in the Washington Post?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/11/19/the-real-secret-to-asian-american-success-was-not-education/?utm_term=.5aee766ae3ac
Don't know if you would be able to respond since your leaving soon, but have you seen Jeff Guo's recent piece in the Washington Post?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/11/19/the-real-secret-to-asian-american-success-was-not-education/?utm_term=.5aee766ae3acReplies: @Razib Khan
did that piece make sense to you? total mishmash. also ignores causality issues.
Razib,
Not particularly, but the article did present some graphs that seem to buttress their case, especially from 1940 to 1970.